Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
DomA Send a noteboard - 04/04/2012 07:16:13 AM
Prophecies of confirmed accuracy tell us that the Aiel will be reduced to a remnant of a remnant by Rand, but Aviendha's vision has at its core problem that the Aiel are too plentiful and powerful, and therefore got bored.
Yeah, it's fairly obvious the future Aviendha has seen is one where key prophecies have derailed. A key element of them was Rand's old (KOD) notions to enforce a truce/peace with the Seanchan - his reason for wanting to meet Tuon, a plan post-epiphany Rand is most unlikely to still pursue. For one thing, he's stopped seeing himself as some sort of world ruler. At this point, he's even warned his inner circle he won't lead the war for them, that it's not his mission (dealing with the Bore and Shai'tan is). His vision of the Seanchan has changed when he visited Ebou Dar. That's not to say he won't advise the rulers to find a way to bring the Seanchan into an alliance of the Light, but he won't enforce anything (he can't possibly ask this of the WT... attempting to force them to make peace with the Seanchan, when the Seanchan obviously want no peace anyway, would destroy what he wants to accomplish at Merrilor!) This "peace of the Dragon" is old Rand's style, not the Rand that came down from DM.
It's all a matter of timing. It is most, most unlikely Aviendha entered the columns before Rand's ephiphany. It sounds like she's seen a future where a variation of "Dark Rand" has won TG, died early but his original plan to enforce a truce has worked, and just like Cadsuane seemed to foresee when Rsnd explained the plan to her, it went awry the minute he was no longer there.
Aviendha's vision has probably lost most of its relevance as a "prophecy" of the future. What's important about this vision is that Aviendha doesn't know it's no longer a likely future, and this will make her take decisions regarding the future of the Aiel to avoid this outcome, decisions which in turn will have an impact on how things will stand right before/during/after TG. For one thing, Aviendha is aware if the Aiel remain warriors, they are doomed. Egwene trusts her and the WO - there's no telling what kind of impact Aviendha could have on Egwene's decisions about the Seanchan, though it sounds likely it will at least make her aware that the future of the WT is in jeopardy. Egwene has made a mistake, when she was so horrified by the notion she and a Seanchan woman "must help each other" that she stepped out of the dream and never learned why and how. She wasn't ready for that, and failed. Aviendha's story could make Egwene more receptive during other dreams about the Seanchan, knowing the alternative for the WT is the future Aviendha has seen and she msut accept to at least let the Dreams show her possibilities out of this mess. Another possible "plot twist" coming is that Rand with the full knowledge of LTT will be able to put things into perspective a lot more, because he may well understand what exactly the Glass Columns do and how they work. He may know if this future is likely or not, if it should be taken seriously as a warning against this solution with the Seanchan, and so on.
And a note: another sign Aviendha's future is already averted is that we know five to ten years after TG Tuon and Mat go to reconquer Seanchan itself. From the hints we have, this won't be an easy task, and it's most unlikely Tuon could stand any chance of success without either having secured a lasting peace in the Westlands, or give up on the idea of reconquering the Westlands altogether, remaining there after a treaty/alliance with the rulers long enough to rebuild her forces post TG before she embarks on the reconquest of Seanchan. Basically, it appears after TG Tuon will be mostly planning her campaign, rebuilding her fleet, rebuilding her armies... which isn't really possible in 5-10 years without the reconquest having stopped. It sounds very likely that though she won't be friends with Egwene and co. almost for sure, they will are reach some sort of viable settlement that won't be quite the one Rand enforced in Aviendha's vision, and most likely won't be spearheaded by Rand at all. It's far more likely to be the work of Egwene, Aviendha, the Windfinders, Elayne and Mat (to name a few). And to be able to mount an invasion and reconquest of Seanchan is barely 5 years, it sounds like Tuon may very well get non-Seanchan help, resources etc. And because of Travelling, her intelligence on what she will face back home is likely to be fairly good.
Yet another clue is that the Sea Folk prophecies (rarely mentionned in the later series, as if RJ didn't want to attract too much attention of their key points) predicts a failure of the Seanchan with the Return, and an increase in power for the Sea Folk.
Aviendha's version of the future contradicts all of this. It's a world in wish the Seanchan and the Westlands avoided clashing during TG, then afterward once Rand was gone the war erupted and eventually the Seanchan gained the upper hand over rather divided forces.. the WT/BT on their own, the Aiel apart etc. This rather sounds like the future the recent changes of perspective of Rand has invalidated.
IMO, the vision is one example of how dividing the books as BS did has altered things. Most likely, Aviendha's vision was to occur not long after Rand's meeting with Tuon and his failure. It was supposed to add to the feeling that everything was spiraling toward doom because of Rand's darkness. He had failed with Tuon for now, but Aviendha's vision was revealing eventually he would have his way, and impose a peace which would have great consequences. And then Tuon attacked the WT - and you start to tell yourself "no wonder this stupid enforced peace Rand will make won't last!".
Putting those scenes out of chronological order in TOM instead, after we know of Rand's epiphany, has greatly changed their impact on the story, the way they are perceived by readers, but ultimately the resolution to come will be RJ. It just makes less sense the way BS chose to order the events, Aviendha's vision will still have its impact on the story eventually, but not the dramatic impact it was supposed to have had it been told when it happened and when such a future was still a possible logical outcome, so before Rand's epiphany, when he still saw himself as a ruler above rulers, and had plans to enforce peace and so on.
This message last edited by DomA on 04/04/2012 at 07:26:32 AM
Aviendha, the columns, and the Seanchan
03/04/2012 04:29:31 PM
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The entire point, I believe, is to give Avienda the opportunity to change that future
03/04/2012 05:13:48 PM
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As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
03/04/2012 07:30:52 PM
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Depends on how one defines Aiel
04/04/2012 04:11:11 AM
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There are more than there were before.
04/04/2012 07:03:27 AM
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But when the prophesy was made there many followers
04/04/2012 10:10:54 AM
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The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
04/04/2012 06:28:47 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 01:41:23 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 07:39:04 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
05/04/2012 02:14:37 PM
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Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
05/04/2012 06:24:56 PM
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Re: Yes, I was thinking of the Aiel's suicidal traditions as well.
06/04/2012 12:20:31 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
06/04/2012 10:38:24 PM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 06:27:27 AM
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Re: The Tuatha'an are not Aiel.
07/04/2012 07:23:03 PM
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So what you're saying...
07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM
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What I am saying is that it's not a "pure bloodline" that makes one an Aiel
08/04/2012 12:16:10 AM
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I never said it was.
08/04/2012 12:43:26 AM
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Actually you did In your above post you speak of the Tinkers as not Aiel because they have been
08/04/2012 06:09:01 AM
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No...
08/04/2012 07:12:22 AM
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You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 05:16:54 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 06:43:27 PM
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Re: You have no evidence that the Tuath'an are mostly comprised of runaways etc
08/04/2012 07:52:10 PM
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Red hair is double recessive ... Doesn't take much to eliminate it from the gene pool. There could
08/04/2012 11:22:36 PM
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You are consistently making the same mistake.
09/04/2012 02:45:46 AM
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They are the same thing. The remnant of a remnant are Aiel
10/04/2012 05:04:55 AM
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No. They are not.
10/04/2012 05:42:29 AM
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Never said the remnant of the remnant was the whole of the Aiel
10/04/2012 05:45:47 PM
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You said that redefining the Aiel would allow Aviendha's vision to be possible.
10/04/2012 06:53:51 PM
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No , I said there were many ways to interpret the statement based on how one defines Aiel
10/04/2012 07:36:11 PM
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All of which is entirely irrelevant.
10/04/2012 07:38:29 PM
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Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
10/04/2012 07:47:04 PM
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Re: Actually it states he will save a remnant of a remnant
11/04/2012 01:40:36 AM
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That is what I just said
14/04/2012 01:41:56 AM
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What is important about that?
14/04/2012 04:35:55 AM
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The importance is that the prophesy says that Rand
14/04/2012 06:06:31 PM
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So what you're saying is...
14/04/2012 09:45:36 PM
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That's exactly it
14/04/2012 11:21:25 PM
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Good.
15/04/2012 02:01:14 AM
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He sets it in motion, thus his actions lead to it
15/04/2012 02:55:13 PM
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Yes, but in that case, he is responsible for everything, ever.
15/04/2012 05:29:31 PM
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We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
15/04/2012 07:21:29 PM
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Re: We are interpreting Prophesy here ... Direct v. Indirect actions are what we are discussing
17/04/2012 04:18:32 AM
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Of course, but the point of my example was...
17/04/2012 06:08:09 PM
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Where are you getting this happens over thousands of years?
18/04/2012 01:47:42 PM
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Re: As far as I understand it, that future is impossible anyway.
04/04/2012 07:16:13 AM
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