Fair enough, but I still disagree with your conclusions.
entyti Send a noteboard - 21/03/2012 10:39:45 PM
Really? She's got a much faster than usual training in the Tower, followed by spending most of her time for 20 years outside the Tower.
I don't know where you get the idea that among AS Moiraine is something of a big time scholar who's done "extensive research". Her area of expertise are matters related to finding the DR (we see in the series that Moiraine didn't have time to look nearly as deeply in prophecies that dealt with later phases closer to the LB, the way for instance Cadsuane or Verin did. Moiraine didn't research the Horn of Valere, the Forsaken, Callandor etc. She wracked her brain trying to puzzle out if Perrin and Mat could be important, but never made the connection between Perrin the blacksmith wolfbrother and the Wolf-King carrying his hammer. Verin was a scholar, and did. *Not a scholar*. Do we see any hint of Moiraine's scholarly knowledge of interpretations of the KC, the kind found in Herid Fel's books? Nope. Moiraine's scholarship of the KC is nowhere as extensive as that of some other sisters, same for the DO, same for Shadowspawn. She was a field agent, and her mission was so secret she couldn't risk going to the scholars. She had to look for possible scholarly clues on her own, and never found much. In Moiraine's plan/vision (we get hints of them in NS, notably), Rand was to come to TV where Siuan would arrange for him to be guided and educated, before his existence could be announced. Moiraine didn't make herself a top scholar of matters related to the Shadow and the LB. It was never their plan that Rand would have to rely on their knowledge of the LB, but on the pool of knowledge of the scholars in TV. Events forced Moiraine to improvise.
Most of what Moiraine knows, the average AS knows. That's not to say she's wasn't well educated and isn't very intelligent, but her strongest areas remain political history and politics, not lore. Constantly in the series we see her knowledge reaching its limits and her having to turn to scholars when she was forced to face new issues that cropped up, some less obvious like Shadar Logoth, but others that anyone planning to be the Dragon's guide would have researched, like the Forsaken. Moiraine had researched all she could to find Rand, she didn't have time to study all she could find to help guide him. It wasn't supposed to be her role.
I don't know where you get the idea that among AS Moiraine is something of a big time scholar who's done "extensive research". Her area of expertise are matters related to finding the DR (we see in the series that Moiraine didn't have time to look nearly as deeply in prophecies that dealt with later phases closer to the LB, the way for instance Cadsuane or Verin did. Moiraine didn't research the Horn of Valere, the Forsaken, Callandor etc. She wracked her brain trying to puzzle out if Perrin and Mat could be important, but never made the connection between Perrin the blacksmith wolfbrother and the Wolf-King carrying his hammer. Verin was a scholar, and did. *Not a scholar*. Do we see any hint of Moiraine's scholarly knowledge of interpretations of the KC, the kind found in Herid Fel's books? Nope. Moiraine's scholarship of the KC is nowhere as extensive as that of some other sisters, same for the DO, same for Shadowspawn. She was a field agent, and her mission was so secret she couldn't risk going to the scholars. She had to look for possible scholarly clues on her own, and never found much. In Moiraine's plan/vision (we get hints of them in NS, notably), Rand was to come to TV where Siuan would arrange for him to be guided and educated, before his existence could be announced. Moiraine didn't make herself a top scholar of matters related to the Shadow and the LB. It was never their plan that Rand would have to rely on their knowledge of the LB, but on the pool of knowledge of the scholars in TV. Events forced Moiraine to improvise.
Most of what Moiraine knows, the average AS knows. That's not to say she's wasn't well educated and isn't very intelligent, but her strongest areas remain political history and politics, not lore. Constantly in the series we see her knowledge reaching its limits and her having to turn to scholars when she was forced to face new issues that cropped up, some less obvious like Shadar Logoth, but others that anyone planning to be the Dragon's guide would have researched, like the Forsaken. Moiraine had researched all she could to find Rand, she didn't have time to study all she could find to help guide him. It wasn't supposed to be her role.
Fair points. And in hind sight, "extensive" was a poor choice of words. However, it changes little regarding the facts surrounding Moiraine's interactions with the Eel'finn doorway. Whether or not her knowledge of 'Finnland came from a book or from experiential wisdom is ultimately irrelevant, as it was the having of that knowledge that was vital to how her dealings with the Foxes proceeded.
As to the validity of the experiential knowledge, I had made my points in my earlier post (points you failed to counterpoint). To recap we have:
-Her letter to Thom (which clearly shows she has made a connection between the creatures of that realm and the game of Snakes and Foxes)
-Her trip to Rhuidean's Rings (which conscously connects her to the doorway)
-Her experience from the Tear doorway, juxtaposed with her extended exposure with the Rhuidean doorway (which gives her perspective, a critical eye, and limited insight to the behavior of the beings on the other side)
-Her observations of Matrim, both his sudden gain in knowledge and his new possessions (which would clue her in that these beings grant gifts rather than answers)
Taken individually, these points are insubstantial. Taken all together, it paints a picture of incidents that (to someone who is familiar and skilled at thinking on her feet, something I think we can both agree that Moiraine has shown able to do) are very telling as far as what to expect on the other side of that doorway.
Armed with just that limited knowledge, she would at the very least not be surprised (as Mat was) when confronted by the Foxes.
Tnis is "lost" knowledge. Jordan implied most remaining knowledge of the Finns has disappeared in the War of Hundred Years. Before then, it was still known you could also reach them by entering the ToG. The AS know the connection to the Snakes and Foxes but their practical knowledge is limited to the study of one Doorway which was found and remained in Mayene for generations, before the WT lost access to it because a First gave it to Tear. They didn't even know a second doorway that went to the Foxes even existed, it's been lost since the Breaking and was in Rhuidean. There's no sign they know of dealings with the Foxes through the Tower of Ghenji. All Moiraine relied on when she spoke to the kids about the Snakes came from the studies by AS made during the time the Doorway was in Mayene. She brought up no other source, no lore, no legends, no ancient facts known by scholars in the WT.
Yes, Moiraine no doubt puzzle out the Doorway in Rhuidean so similar to the one in Tear must lead to another realm too. She may have guessed it was likely the one of those "Foxes" connected in the game with the Snakes. None of that gave her great wisdom to deal with this people or prepared her for it, and I'll remind you that for all her supposed scholarship of the Finns you invent, she didn't make a succesful deal with them. She lost and remained their prisoner.
Yes, Moiraine no doubt puzzle out the Doorway in Rhuidean so similar to the one in Tear must lead to another realm too. She may have guessed it was likely the one of those "Foxes" connected in the game with the Snakes. None of that gave her great wisdom to deal with this people or prepared her for it, and I'll remind you that for all her supposed scholarship of the Finns you invent, she didn't make a succesful deal with them. She lost and remained their prisoner.
Again, you focus on my blatant mistake of misrepresenting her scholarly skills as well as the certain lack of knowledge that exists in the Westlands, but fail to counterpoint the circumstantial but, imo relevant, evidence presented.
Frankly, your last point, that she lost and remained their prisoner, can not be validated by the little knowledge we do know. At least, her "failure" can not be directly attributed to her lack of knowledge. In fact, I would argue that it was too much knowledge that may have taken her down the path she took. After all, the Rhuidean Rings gave her unique insight relating to her fate with the Eel'finn doorway. Her letters both to Rand and Mat validate this fact.
So her inability to escape can not be the only measure we use to judge her success with dealing with the Eel'finn. The only thing that can do that is to find out what her three wishes were, and how they were fulfilled. You may judge her request for the angreal as a deficient wish. I wouldn't be so quick to judge. I happen to think there was wisdom to that choice, as it gave her a buffer from the 'finn feeding frenzy, and is now an instrument for her to access a similar capacity of the One Power that she had prior to her imprisonment.
Omnipresent Lurker of WoTMB
Proud and Open Rolan Sympathiser
Fan of Everything Tool
Eternal Shiva Enthusiast
Proud and Open Rolan Sympathiser
Fan of Everything Tool
Eternal Shiva Enthusiast
Aelfinn & Eelfinn and the Last Battle
- 20/03/2012 11:53:40 AM
1514 Views
Re: Aelfinn & Eelfinn and the Last Battle
- 20/03/2012 04:20:26 PM
1208 Views
I disagree with your conclusions on Moiraine's foreknowledge of the Eel'Finn
- 20/03/2012 08:10:12 PM
772 Views
I think you overestimate her scholarship....
- 21/03/2012 12:41:17 PM
916 Views
Fair enough, but I still disagree with your conclusions.
- 21/03/2012 10:39:45 PM
892 Views