Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: I very much doubt it by Sidious

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Re: I very much doubt it Sidious Send a noteboard - 17/03/2012 07:33:48 PM

Realistically more people need to know about the death of the Semirhage and the Mesaana for it to be a major blow to the shadow. I see your point that it makes a big difference to the people who saw it directly but it's not big enough in the grand scheme to be a major blow. The black ajah cleansing was way more important, as were the events at the Eye of the World.

I wonder if the Tower advertised the execution of the Black Ajah though? They've strongly denied the existence of the Black since their founding, and I wouldn't put it past them to officially declare that the executions were due to treason i.e. breaking the Tower.

But no need to advertise... It's still a much larger blow than the deaths of Semirhage and Mesaana. Several reasons

1. Losing the Black Ajah cost the Shadow over a hundred trained women channelers
2. Massive loss of influence, the BA gave the Shadow an insider angle into one of their most powerful enemies that in turn allowed them to exert influence over many other groups
3. As others have mentioned this limits their mixed circle capabilities
4. Your own point about Semirhage and Mesaana holds some truth here too. The AS have seen that the Shadow can Ben beaten now, they have witnessed their own weakness and overcome it making them a more potent enemy than before. This coupled with Egwene personally defeating Mesaana makes this event even more significant.

I'm not going to fight too much with you on this, mostly because I think you may be right. I guess it comes from my own huge disrespect for the BA. Thirteen of them escaped in TDR and they accomplished nothing and were defeated easily by Elayne and Nynaeve on different occasions. I think the Forsaken, although defeated, are a hundred times as competent than the Black Ajah. The BA are more like a cult, and most of them have never met more than a few others, meaning that they are disorganized and would suddenly be pulled out of the Tower and then asked to fight with the Power at the Final Battle. It's chaotic and slightly pathetic if you ask me. The dark Ash'aman seem to be far more organized and dangerous.

People mock the Forsaken but they were incredibly destructive in many ways. I'd much rather kill Demandred than a hundred evil Ash'aman.

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Biggest blows to the Shadow... brett014 - 12/03/2012 07:15:32 PM 1909 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... Evil_Monkey - 12/03/2012 11:44:08 PM 687 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... Fanatic-Templar - 13/03/2012 12:37:55 AM 809 Views

Those were the exact three I had first on my list. Good call. *NM* Cannoli - 13/03/2012 04:55:29 AM 371 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... Cannoli - 13/03/2012 04:51:32 AM 897 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... brett014 - 14/03/2012 06:22:51 PM 667 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... DomA - 14/03/2012 11:36:00 PM 796 Views

Another Concord... fionwe1987 - 15/03/2012 12:33:51 AM 704 Views

The LB started in the epilogue of TOM, if you ask me... DomA - 15/03/2012 04:24:43 PM 568 Views

That's the war against the Shadow... fionwe1987 - 20/03/2012 06:01:02 AM 681 Views

This is a wonderful summary of what I feel the situation at Merrilor wil be and I wish I wrote this IndigoAjah - 29/04/2012 07:41:53 PM 685 Views

Shouldn't my post have ended in NM? *NM* IndigoAjah - 29/04/2012 07:49:07 PM 246 Views

Re: Biggest blows to the Shadow... Sidious - 13/03/2012 08:03:59 PM 691 Views

I disagree on number three don't think it's broad enough darius_sedai - 17/03/2012 02:53:08 PM 555 Views

I wonder if it was advertised though? Sidious - 17/03/2012 04:25:23 PM 630 Views

I very much doubt it darius_sedai - 17/03/2012 04:48:56 PM 540 Views

Re: I very much doubt it Sidious - 17/03/2012 07:33:48 PM 492 Views

It's funny because I don't think the Forsaken have proven particularly effective either darius_sedai - 17/03/2012 07:47:58 PM 574 Views

I think they've been pretty effective Sidious - 19/03/2012 10:46:11 AM 567 Views

Yet they have done very little to move the grand plan forward darius_sedai - 19/03/2012 11:51:59 PM 529 Views

What plan? Sidious - 20/03/2012 08:18:40 AM 750 Views

I disagree ... The DO seems to have a plan and Moridin showed us he is following a prophesy darius_sedai - 20/03/2012 01:05:40 PM 606 Views

Up until the very end of TGS, wasn't the plan to turn Rand/make him do the DO's job for him? IndigoAjah - 29/04/2012 07:46:04 PM 599 Views

That's what I was saying ... Or at least part of it darius_sedai - 30/04/2012 12:45:24 AM 670 Views

Re: I very much doubt it DomA - 17/03/2012 09:59:15 PM 562 Views

Regarding Demandred Sidious - 19/03/2012 11:11:22 AM 506 Views

Re: Regarding Demandred DomA - 19/03/2012 06:26:49 PM 639 Views

Re: Regarding Demandred Sidious - 21/03/2012 09:48:40 PM 503 Views

Re: I disagree on number three don't think it's broad enough DomA - 17/03/2012 05:46:31 PM 655 Views

I always thought of the victory at the Eye as the Lights first big win in the series darius_sedai - 17/03/2012 07:27:12 PM 615 Views

Re: I always thought of the victory at the Eye as the Lights first big win in the series DomA - 17/03/2012 09:16:08 PM 659 Views

I largely agree with you darius_sedai - 18/03/2012 03:25:17 AM 603 Views

Re: I always thought of the victory at the Eye as the Lights first big win in the series guttering flame - 30/04/2012 07:04:06 PM 587 Views

"Seemingly young girl"? Is she actually old or something? Maybe she's not a girl? Cannoli - 19/03/2012 01:39:12 AM 645 Views

Re: "Seemingly young girl"? Is she actually old or something? Maybe she's not a girl? Praziquantel - 19/03/2012 03:34:11 AM 624 Views

Re: "Seemingly young girl"? Is she actually old or something? Maybe she's not a girl? Sidious - 19/03/2012 10:35:57 AM 710 Views

Oh, I'd probably die. That's not the important thing. Cannoli - 20/03/2012 03:08:37 AM 588 Views

Not that this debate really matters... fionwe1987 - 20/03/2012 03:40:37 AM 528 Views

Re: Oh, I'd probably die. That's not the important thing. Sidious - 20/03/2012 08:14:51 AM 545 Views

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<quote id="247679"><quote id="247674"><quote id="247670"><quote id="247667">Realistically more people need to know about the death of the Semirhage and the Mesaana for it to be a major blow to the shadow.   I see your point that it makes a big difference to the people who saw it directly but it's not big enough in the grand scheme to be a major blow.  The black ajah cleansing was way more important, as were the events at the Eye of the World.</quote></quote>

<quote id="247679">I wonder if the Tower advertised the execution of the Black Ajah though? They've strongly denied the existence of the Black since their founding, and I wouldn't put it past them to officially declare that the executions were due to treason i.e. breaking the Tower.</quote></quote>

<quote id="247679">But no need to advertise... It's still a much larger blow than the deaths of Semirhage and Mesaana.  Several reasons </quote>

<quote id="247679">1.  Losing the Black Ajah cost the Shadow over a hundred trained women channelers</quote>

<quote id="247679">2.  Massive loss of influence, the BA gave the Shadow an insider angle into one of their most powerful enemies that in turn allowed them to exert influence over many other groups</quote>

<quote id="247679">3.  As others have mentioned this limits their mixed circle capabilities</quote>

<quote id="247679">4.  Your own point about Semirhage and Mesaana holds some truth here too.  The AS have seen that the Shadow can Ben beaten now, they have witnessed their own weakness and overcome it making them a more potent enemy than before.  This coupled with Egwene personally defeating Mesaana makes this event even more significant.</quote></quote>

<quote id="247679">I'm not going to fight too much with you on this, mostly because I think you may be right. I guess it comes from my own huge disrespect for the BA. Thirteen of them escaped in TDR and they accomplished nothing and were defeated easily by Elayne and Nynaeve on different occasions. I think the Forsaken, although defeated, are a hundred times as competent than the Black Ajah. The BA are more like a cult, and most of them have never met more than a few others, meaning that they are disorganized and would suddenly be pulled out of the Tower and then asked to fight with the Power at the Final Battle. It's chaotic and slightly pathetic if you ask me. The dark Ash'aman seem to be far more organized and dangerous.</quote>

<quote id="247679">People mock the Forsaken but they were incredibly destructive in many ways. I'd much rather kill Demandred than a hundred evil Ash'aman.</quote>

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