Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 22/02/2012 09:03:53 PM
The point is rather that Elayne hasn't granted herself the right, she was obviously within Andoran law to do that, or such a public act if it was shocking or unexpected would have had repercussions on Pelivar and co.'s support (she didn't even act as Queen, she was still High Seat).
Which Elayne's thoughts reveal is exactly what would have happened had she not managed to spin it so it didn't look so obviously like a power grab:
If Elayne were seen as seizing land and money for the throne, the other nobles would unite against her.
Choosing Enemies, Towers of Midnight.
She's not destroyed the checks and balance, there's still 18 Great Houses!
Suppose that after winning an election, the prime minister removes the citizenship of every member of an opposing party. Would it be fair to say that this prime minister has not destroyed the democratic system because he still needs to be elected by the people, every citizen still has one vote, and every vote is equal?
Let's keep in mind that she was in a position after the fiasco of that attack to push out of the game board two Great Houses that put their ambitions far ahead of the good of Andor. Elayne acted as a ruler should, that move was expected of her. Morgase was too lenient with the Great Houses that opposed the throne (though Elaida implies she was playing the game of houses with the High Seat massively, which probaly didn't help Andor's stability), and she paid for it (before even Gaebril, Andor was fairly divided, with the WC gaining influence).
Despite what you say, that passage in Choosing Enemies I keep bringing up indicates pretty clearly that this was not expected of her. And that, furthermore, this was something that few queens would ever attempt.. Again, I'm going to need a quote about this being expected.
You're very keen to point out how Egwene destroys checks and balances, but I would remind you that among the Rebels it's far more the Hall that has sought to undermine the system and grant itself powers it doesn't officially have or sapped procedures that are there for a reason.
You needn't remind me, I already know this. The whole point was about the hypocrisy of it. We already know that the Hall of the Tower was full of abusive power-hungry women and that Elaida's attempt to force an Oath of loyalty on all Sisters was wrong or that Colavaere's ascension to the Sun Throne was a despicable power grab. These are all treated as such. When the book becomes full of people telling us that Elaida is the greatest Amyrlin of all time, that the rebel Hall was going to usher in a new era of prosperity and that Colavaere is bloody brilliant in a triumphant resolution of her section of the book, I'll find it necessary to explain to people that they're actually power-hungry despots. But until then, I assume everybody already knows.
I disliked the whole storyline a lot, but to be honest I didn't recognize Elayne or her thinking in much of anything, and I blame Sanderson completely for this. Elayne in KOD was getting more and more clever politically (and a great deal of her political thinking was from Machiavel - not the "evil" myth but the real political thinker!). In TOM like most characters she lost many IQ points all of a sudden. I'm sure Jordan essentially meant her to make the moves she made, for Cairhien, with Perrin, with the Kin, with Mat and so on, but I thought Sanderson executed this poorly for the most part (he also butchered it with his absurb book structure and Elayne's time travels, but it's mostly Elayne's character and her motivations - very poorly presented and dumbed-down, which broke away from what Jordan was building that I mean here). I managed to keep my interest in the Andor storyline though I'd wish Jordan didn't have to split it in small chunks overlapping from book to book as he did, but much like the rushed and oversimplified Tower resolution in TGS, I found Elayne's storyline in TOM very disappointing, the second part anyway (not all her scenes are bad, but the political ones for the most part were).
Yes, precisely. I don't necessarily have a problem with the end results of those actions (though as far as personal fan-theories, I always wanted Galad to get the Sun Throne, because he's so hilariously un-Cairhienin) but the characters' portrayal in Towers of Midnight felt completely off, and reminded me of the scheming nobles and Aes Sedai the rest of the series trained us to scorn.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 22/02/2012 at 09:04:40 PM
Bad Elayne! No biscuit!
- 18/02/2012 10:13:54 PM
2147 Views
You are assigning your 21st century view onto people with totally different circumstances
- 18/02/2012 11:33:56 PM
877 Views
You are assigning your knee-jerk assumptions to my post
- 19/02/2012 03:29:02 AM
880 Views
As per usual you choose to assume the people of WoT have your belief system when you comment on the
- 19/02/2012 05:31:57 PM
983 Views
It has nothing to do with a specific system of morality, but basic natural law.
- 19/02/2012 11:26:13 PM
1043 Views
Where were Mat and Rand when they found Domon? In a wilderness along the RIVER.
- 20/02/2012 12:40:38 AM
858 Views
Re: Where were Mat and Rand when they found Domon? In a wilderness along the RIVER.
- 22/02/2012 01:10:54 AM
999 Views
Just read the books. Including the BWB ... It spells it out for those who care to read.
- 22/02/2012 02:48:45 AM
830 Views
The Queen of Andor lost all authority over the Two Rivers when she failed to protect it. *NM*
- 25/03/2012 02:53:23 PM
438 Views
Which is why they elected their own lord
- 25/03/2012 06:25:31 PM
792 Views
Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
- 18/02/2012 11:44:19 PM
1147 Views
Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
- 20/02/2012 03:11:14 AM
1240 Views
Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
- 20/02/2012 06:22:21 AM
791 Views
Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
- 22/02/2012 06:23:36 PM
938 Views
Re: Yes, absolutely. I remember saying this back when I first read the book.
- 22/02/2012 09:03:53 PM
885 Views
"Damn sister married the Pope instead of my chosen Lord Ohsoimportant"
- 25/03/2012 03:50:06 PM
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Okay, I admit it, there is no way I am reading such a long post about Elayne.....
- 19/02/2012 08:14:53 PM
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The Caraline treatment.
- 25/03/2012 02:41:12 PM
801 Views
Do you Colavaer Saighan? I don't recall Caraline having her lands and titles stripped
- 25/03/2012 10:44:57 PM
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I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
- 11/05/2012 12:05:25 AM
920 Views
Re: I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
- 11/05/2012 02:10:01 AM
911 Views
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Re: I think she did an admirable job protecting Andor in very challenging circumstances.
- 24/05/2012 06:45:19 AM
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Generally, I think both her means AND ends were correct; reconciling them was the challenge.
- 30/05/2012 03:55:00 AM
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