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Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions Cannoli Send a noteboard - 05/02/2012 12:00:05 AM


Ah, I knew about those. I assumed he was talking about the time during or just after the breaking. I don't see it as relevant, though. There were always Aes Sedai in the tower, even during the Trolloc wars, which means they could have passed on Travelling if they knew it.

Also, for the record, forgetting about the date is another thing I see as unlikely.
But it did.

Ok. I'd still like the source if anyone has it, but I'm willing to accept that no Aes Sedai lived through all of the breaking. It still doesn't invalidate my point that it seems like a thing that's incredibly useful and relatively quick to learn without requiring a special Talent.
And complex, and difficult to use with the land constantly shifting. Even if the ground you were on did not change, a new mountain range 100 miles away still altered the visual references of the area.

Also, as DomA points out, the AoL with their high tech and refined techniques were probably used to a much greater degree of precision. If you are used to knowing 100% and that is your standard for knowledge, adjusting to a point where you only know maybe 70% is going to feel like rushing into something blindly. Since the Power won't work if you don't believe it will, it could be that once the Breaking started rearranging the geography, the AoL Aes Sedai, used to the equvialent of GPS coordinates, could no longer use the precision with which they were accustomed to Travelling. Look at Aran'gar's scorn for Gareth Bryne, blundering along with what to her standards is complete ignorance of his surroundings, and no sophisticated command and control systems or communications with the extreme ends of his army. From her perspective, he is stumbling along in the dark, while to him and any other general, he is only operating under the conditions to which he is accustomed, and when his scouts are reporting in, feels like he has a clear view of what's going on. So in contrast, a channeler from the Third Age, despite what an AoLer would consider an appalling ignorance of his surroundings or destination, feels fully confident in opening up a gateway, that same AoL channeler, with none of her accustomed data flow or precise information, would be thinking "I don't know ANYTHING! How can I make a gateway work under these conditions?" And if you THINK you don't know enough to open a gateway, than you really DON'T know enough. That's how it works.

I'm not saying he wasn't dangerous, just that the fact that he got the mind of a child disproves Cannoli's original statement, which was
What was his first impulse? As a child, with no thought of the consequences, he was going to start tearing apart the palace! Rather than DISprove, this SUPPORTS my assertion! Even a guy who is simply reduced to an innocent child-like state, is still inclined to destruction! And he would certainly have become worse over time, and less amenable to the fortunate reason Min was able to impart to him. Even a mild and initially unnoticable form of the madness, that appears superficially benevolent, is still inclined to casual destruction.



This bit isn't actually relevant to the argument, since you agree that Travelling may have been of the essentials, which would have been passed on if it was useful.
There is also the point that it is not particularly useful if you have nowhere to go (why do you think Nynaeve & Elayne never bothered to ask Moghedian about Traveling? They were committed to their course of remaining in Salidar, despite occasionally floating the notion of leaving). For the typical channeler in the Breaking, there was always more than enough to deal with right in front of them. You are also operating under a blind assumption that the recruiting and training continued as normal. In fact, channeling crops up in any group of people, even those who were out of contact with the official, organized Aes Sedai. Since, for all intents and purposes, Aes Sedai & channelers were one and the same in the AoL, the channelers spontaneously arising among the people would have gone by that title too. You are assuming that the Aes Sedai of the late and post-Breaking were all taught by AoL Aes Sedai or by the students of AoL Aes Sedai, when in fact a lot of them would have learned on their own, or been taught by wilders. The account of the founding of the White Tower in the BWB is far more suggestive of seperate and independant groups making contact with one another once things had settled down enough that human populations could stop worrying about the urgencies of immediate survival. I doubt few of those groups or their antecedents had any more connection to the official, formally-trained channelers of the AoL than a half-recalled name from legends that they began using for its prestige. It's like the office of Senator in the United States - it may be taken from the Roman name and body, but there is no unbroken chain of tradition or teaching - it is merely a name resurrected for the gravitas associated with it in antiquity.

Expecting the Aes Sedai of the AB era to retain the teachings of the AoL Aes Sedai, is like assuming US Senators should all speak Latin, and recall the minor laws and regulations from their days as Roman quaestors and praetors.


This is an assumption. I agree that if it is true, it seems reasonable that Travelling got lost, but I don't agree with the assumption that the conditions would turn Travelling into "a weave that most likely would end up killing people".
And what makes your disagreement the equal or superior to our agreement?


All of this is also not relevant to the argument. But it makes me think I should dig out my copy of the BWB.
Indeed.

It seems to me that this whole discussion boils down to "Do you see it as likely that people who knew how to Travel stopped using it during the Breaking, for some reason or other?" I say no, but since we don't know it's just a matter of opinion.
And even if they had it, why would you assume that anyone who knew it had contact with all other Aes Sedai? All institutions and groups and people from the AoL were wiped out. People were knocked down to feral savagery and hunter-gatherer levels. There is no reason to believe that the AoL Aes Sedai did NOT die out without ever getting the chance to teach their knowledge or that those students they DID teach survived long enough to teach others. In the ordinary wilderness, a trigenarian is ancient - in the Breaking, people were probably fortunate to live to see their offspring walking before they themselves died. You'd think surgery a whole host of other skills would be too useful to forget or to not teach, but the civilized folks were ill-equipped to survive in the new world, and died out, while people who grabbed & ate the first rat they saw instead of studying lost techniques and lamenting the passing of civilization, were the ones who survived to pass on their genes. Channelers would have arisen within the tribes and clans and whatnot even if they never saw an Aes Sedai, and the old stories and legends would have preserved the name, like those of the Forsaken, who seem to be remembered almost like gods (rain is caused by Semirhage crying from the Dark One's beatings...8} ), rather than villainous men and women. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that Aes Sedai are an ongoing organization which has simply mutated and adapted over time, when in fact, they were a group that was wiped out, and their name appropriated by a new group that did what they did.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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How did Travelling become a lost Talent? - 03/02/2012 09:09:39 AM 2076 Views
It is a little odd. Maybe because channelers weren't united for a while? - 03/02/2012 02:24:17 PM 999 Views
Re: How did Travelling become a lost Talent? - 03/02/2012 02:49:02 PM 838 Views
It has always seemed unlikely. - 03/02/2012 04:53:14 PM 907 Views
i think it could be - 03/02/2012 07:56:18 PM 1046 Views
Re: i think it could be - 04/02/2012 12:56:57 PM 973 Views
I'm really not seeing it. - 05/02/2012 04:19:38 AM 835 Views
It's always struck me as a tool of the Author more than a good hard fact - 04/02/2012 01:40:06 AM 690 Views
Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 04/02/2012 07:34:45 AM 1085 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 04/02/2012 09:48:52 AM 903 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 04/02/2012 03:04:48 PM 934 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 04/02/2012 06:58:41 PM 816 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 05/02/2012 12:00:05 AM 833 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 05/02/2012 04:05:57 AM 755 Views
I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking - 05/02/2012 05:53:32 PM 796 Views
not to mention - 05/02/2012 07:16:59 PM 755 Views
Re: not to mention - 05/02/2012 08:50:50 PM 1074 Views
Re: not to mention - 05/02/2012 09:33:40 PM 792 Views
Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking - 05/02/2012 07:39:51 PM 983 Views
Medical knowledge... - 06/02/2012 02:15:13 AM 685 Views
My point was that it's surprising only ONE Healing weave survived - 11/02/2012 08:25:02 PM 753 Views
Re: I don't see why people are having trouble believing Traveling was lost in the Breaking - 05/02/2012 09:11:04 PM 689 Views
Rant rant rant - 11/02/2012 08:26:56 PM 803 Views
I agree. I was going to respond but you covered most of the bases. - 08/02/2012 04:13:20 PM 681 Views
Re: Your theory is based on rather severely flawed assumptions - 05/02/2012 09:52:35 PM 855 Views
You really need to read the BWB sections regarding this - 14/02/2012 01:20:20 AM 676 Views
he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes - 14/02/2012 02:46:44 AM 636 Views
Re: he needs to read it just to see it for his own eyes - 14/02/2012 10:15:46 PM 715 Views
I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series - 15/02/2012 03:38:37 PM 615 Views
Re: I would agree with you on less structured parts of the series - 16/02/2012 09:41:29 PM 768 Views
That I can agree with - 17/02/2012 05:46:49 AM 823 Views
Re: That I can agree with - 17/02/2012 09:26:50 AM 686 Views
Seriously! The Yellow should be ashamed - 17/02/2012 01:49:07 PM 831 Views
Well to be fair to the Yellow (which generally annoy me as an Ajah)... - 17/02/2012 06:20:06 PM 752 Views
Seems reasonable - 18/02/2012 05:49:40 PM 713 Views
Quote found - 12/02/2012 01:35:58 AM 640 Views
My thoughts - 05/02/2012 10:14:59 PM 873 Views
Re: How did Travelling become a lost Talent? - 13/02/2012 12:24:35 PM 812 Views
a few more other factors - 15/02/2012 08:22:02 PM 673 Views

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