You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"...
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM
You stated in the sub-thread above that Androl's gateway talent disproves Logain's gateway comparison as strength evidence.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
Well, it does not. Look at the context.
Yes, there exists some form of gateway talent, just like Berowin's shielding talent. But channelers' own comments prove to us that this is rare enough that gateway size in general is very strongly associated with channeler strength.
The rarity is not proven at all. Breowin and Androl are at the apex of this Talent, and can do things nobody can because they have this Talent to such great extents. That doesn't mean the Talent is a rarity.
Look, Samitsu is so skilled in Healing she can do things that would usually take a circle of 13 to do (same as Breowin or Androl, really). I think the same can be said of Nynaeve or Flinn or Semirhage. That doesn't mean that Healing in general can be used as a measure of strength, with these people being convenient outliers we can ignore. There is zero evidence that Traveling and Shielding are on or off Talents, where you either have it or you don't. Like all Talents, there's a continuum from the totally clueless to the extremely capable.
And in particular, Logain's comment tells us that in the Logain/Rand case, it is stronly correlated.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
Logain is a leader of the Ashaman who has direct experience of the strengths and gateway sizes of hundreds of male channelers.
But he has no objective measure of the Talent they possess. In general, stronger channelers may have bigger Gateways, but there are bound to be any number of anomalies in this. Unless you can show me proof that Logain did some systematic study comparing channeler strength and Gateway sizes, taking him as an expert on this is ridiculous. Logain is far from an OP expert, and I find it beyond absurd to think that he has been observing Gateway sizes continuously as some means of strength comparison.
And clearly, based on his experience with such a large number of channelers, strength and gateway size is correlated in such a vast majority of cases that Logain feels Rand's gateway size is a very strong indication of his comparative strength.
That is completely meaningless. This assumes Traveling is an all or nothing Talent, which there is no evidence for. There is no evidence that any Talent is like this.
And furthermore, Logain only makes this comment AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, and commenting on the fact that this indeed is Rand's full strength.
And...? He sees Rand's full strength, which, unsurprisingly, is greater than his. Then, he correlates that to Rand's larger Gateways, and assumes one is responsible for the other. But Logain has shown no signs of knowing that Traveling is a Talent and people with very low strengths can make extraordinary sized Gateways, or that people with moderate strength and moderate Talent can still make somewhat larger than expected Gateways.
Taking his statement to mean that if someone's Gateway is 85% smaller, they are 85% weaker is quite the leap.
Hence, AFTER sensing Rand's full strength, he still states that their comparative gateway sizes are in correspondence with their strength difference.
Yes, he's saying correlation implies causation, and you're happily taking him at his word.
Logain himself makes this evaluation, having both their comparative gatway sizes and comparative strengths at hand to make this comparison. And he STILL is comfortable that the one is in correspondence to the other.
So? Asmodean looks at Rand's Gateway, and he knows how strong Rand is, and still says, "impressive". For that matter, Rand was making Gateways that were 4 paces by 4 well before he reached full strength, and attaining full strength doesn't seem to have changed his Gateway size at all. So, back in LoC, when he was as strong as Taim, who is likely as strong as Logain, Rand had a Gateway size of 4x4, which is what he has even now, at LTT level. What does this say about the correlation between strength and Gateway size?
And here's what Asmodean had to say:
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.
Surely, we can agree Asmodean knows better than Logain?
So definitely in this instance strength is related to gateway strength, and quite accurately too, and judging by Logain's confidence in the obviousness of the correlation, also in the vast majority of other instances, gateway size is perfectly correlated to strength.
Because Logain is an expert who made some actual calculations, and despite all the evidence to the contrary? I think I'll take Asmodean's word here over Logain any day.
Underestimating Forsaken strength
11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM
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Yes, you are probably correct
12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM
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Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed
12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM
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The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4?
12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM
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I find that unlikely
12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM
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Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR?
13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM
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Well....
13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM
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Well there we have it
13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM
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Re: Well there we have it
13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM
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Re: Well there we have it
13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM
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Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve...
14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM
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That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM*
14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM
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Where would you place Egwene though?
14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM
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Re: Where would you place Egwene though?
14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM
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Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe...
14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM
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14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM
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The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ...
14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM
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Yes I would agree with that
14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM
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Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane
14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM
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So many instances of logical laziness in that post...
14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM
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Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post...
15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM
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There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements...
15/12/2011 07:03:01 AM
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Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements...
17/12/2011 10:25:47 AM
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Because a difference of a few % is negligible, and not even worth mentioning...
17/12/2011 10:54:49 AM
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Yes
13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM
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Re: Yes
13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM
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Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry,
13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM
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There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex.
13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM
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None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it...
13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM
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But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will.
13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM
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Wait.. I DIDN'T write that!
14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM
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Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:"
17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM
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You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"...
18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM
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On gateways
18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM
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Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha.
19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM
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I suspect he knows that...
19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM
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