Wheel of Time Messageboard: None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... by Shannow

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None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... Shannow Send a noteboard - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM

I don't think the answer is as clear cut as you would think because we do know that it is the metaphysics of the Pattern that determines whether souls have access to the One Power once embodied. Namely, Team Jordan and RJ himself have stated that not only is channeling tied to the soul, but strength is variable across incarnations, strength has more to do with the body than the soul and that channeling is both a combination of a genetic recessive gene but also metaphysical elements, such as the Soul and whether the Pattern needs it. Further, we are told that Talents occupy a more circular relationship than a genetic explanation would indicate; we are told that it is the Soul's Talent that not only determines a persons' interest in healing others, but also impacts their ability to be skilled with healing weaves. To add fuel to this fire, we are told that the Pattern ultimately determines if the Talent is even needed. Basically, I now think that 'strength in the Power' is a limited way of understanding how it really works, since it ultimately seems that your destiny in the Pattern may actually be circular - ie: your importance to the Pattern determines the strength of your channeling in a physical body before you are incarnated, with momentary t'a'veren states increasing your ability still further as needed by The Pattern.

Maria gave an answer that described this type of circular pattern; in the case of this question, it was the Talent in Healing tied to the soul that lead women to become Wisdoms, not all of whom used the Power in their healing, but whose Talent and life experience resulted in a greater capacity for Healing weaves and healing in general. Almost as if their status of Healers was what is in their soul and not necessarily a 'Talent' or genetic potential:

Luckers: In Knife of Dreams Ch. 23, 'Call to a Sitting', Tiana notes that many of the women who are strong in Nynaeve’s method of Healing used to be village Wise Women. She wonders why that should make any difference, and indeed it does seem to imply that their life experience in some way affected their degree of Talent. How would this work out under the understanding of Talent as a soul ability? Does life experience change the strength of the Talent, whilst soul ability decides if you have it? Or should we make a distinction between Talents which are skills—like Healing, or that Shielding Talent Berowin of the Kin has—and Talents which are abilities—like Foretelling, Wolfbrothering or Dreaming?
Maria: Okay, let’s look at this. Why did these women choose to be village Wise Women? Maybe they haven’t sparked, but the Talent is there. They may not understand it, but they feel that they should be healing the sick. So, instead of life experience affecting the Talent, I think that it’s more that the Talent affects the life experience.
Also, Aes Sedai have been taught that Healing is done one way, and that way is the only proper way. It’s sort of like the gesture limitation; if an Aes Sedai learns to make weaves using gestures, she’ll have a really hard time making the weave without making the gesture. I think that the former Wise Women are more open to learning the new way, and that gives them another advantage at it.

Team RJ stated that channeling was tied to the soul but the body affected the strength, which is why I think it is interesting to think that the body may have less to do with the One Power ultimately and be more of a crutch. We know the souls are eternal, but it is the body that limits "strength". Since the body is tied to genetics, this has more to do with the physical realm than the metaphysical realm:
quote from Team RJ:

Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

Paraphrased Quote 2 from RJ:

There were a few questions about his series, one that I asked was: if channeling was genetic, did the Forsaken need bodies that were genetically compatible for them to be able to use the power?
His answer was that channeling is not just a recessive or dominant gene, rather both genetic and in the soul.

Another interesting quote regarding the metaphysical needs of The Pattern. In this quote, Maria clarifies that if the Pattern doesn't need a Talent, the Talent won't manifest. This is counter to how genetics are said to work and is probably why there can be Ages where there is no One Power while the souls of channelers could be reborn in such a time period:

Brandon: My instinct knowing how Jim wrote and knowing the parallels in the notes would be that he would parallel the other Talents along the same lines. A wolf brother then would always have the ability to become a wolf brother and other things along those lines. I’m going off of instinct, so that is an asterisked answer. I can MAFO that and look it up and we can see what we can find, but he did like to parallel a lot of these things...16
[Maria clarifies: Jim says of Talents: “A Talent is a special ability with the One Power. While the name is used for other things, a Talent is, in truth, something which is inborn in the person and not something that can be learned.” And there is mention of the Wheel throwing out what it needs on occasion, and there’s the phrase, “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.” The Wheel can give and take as it needs. I believe that the potential for a Talent is there, but it doesn't necessarily manifest each time a soul is born. If the Wheel needs the Talent, the Talent is there. But if the Wheel doesn't need it, it lies dormant.

RJ clarified that burning out or being Stilled would only affect a current life i.e. their current physical body. This is noteworthy because it once again shows a difference between the physical realm and the metaphysics of the One Power - Siuan may be weaker in this life, but her soul's ability is not affected:

Quote 1:

Question: Previously you have made it known that an individual who is severed will retain the ability to channel in his or her subsequent life, which connects the ability to channel with the soul. How does burning out affect ones ability to channel in the next life? Specifically, will an individual born with the spark but who burns out during his or her life have the inborn spark in a subsequent life?
Jordan: I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or severing affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.

Quote 2:

Linda: Since the ability to channel seems to be primarily linked to the soul, if a Channeler is gentled/stilled, will this affect his/her soul in a [future] life as well, as in, will the ability to Channel still be lost?
RJ: No.
Neptune: I think Linda is asking if the soul is immortal in Jordan's world.
Moderator: So...is it??
RJ: Yes, the soul is immortal.

All of the above simply says that the ability to channel is linked to the soul, but strength is limited by the physical body a sould happens to inhabit during a particular incarnation.

And clearly, female bodies are weaker than male bodies. Both physically and in terms of the One Power strength that they allow the chaenneler to possess.

A female suddenly deciding through sheer force of will that this limitation does not apply to her is in for a rude awakening, unfortunately.

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Underestimating Forsaken strength Nessarra - 11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM 1871 Views

Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Shannow - 11/12/2011 07:45:29 AM 775 Views

Re: Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Nessarra - 11/12/2011 10:25:03 PM 790 Views

Yes, you are probably correct Sidious - 12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM 891 Views

Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed Watcher - 12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM 698 Views

The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4? Shannow - 12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM 728 Views

I find that unlikely Sidious - 12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM 696 Views

Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR? Shannow - 13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM 667 Views

Well.... Sidious - 13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM 730 Views

Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM 735 Views

Re: Well there we have it Sidious - 13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM 763 Views

Re: Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM 701 Views

Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM 773 Views

That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM* Sidious - 14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM 403 Views

Where would you place Egwene though? fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM 682 Views

Re: Where would you place Egwene though? Sidious - 14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM 680 Views

Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe... Shannow - 14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM 822 Views

fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM 633 Views

The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ... Shannow - 14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM 662 Views

Yes! And...? fionwe1987 - 15/12/2011 02:53:37 AM 671 Views

Yes I would agree with that Sidious - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM 822 Views

Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM 600 Views

No Sidious - 14/12/2011 09:10:34 PM 687 Views

That makes no sense. TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 09:13:48 PM 752 Views

Correct. Shannow - 14/12/2011 09:43:53 PM 694 Views

Re: Correct. Sidious - 15/12/2011 05:54:37 AM 689 Views

So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Shannow - 14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM 1128 Views

Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Sidious - 15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM 611 Views

There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Shannow - 15/12/2011 07:03:01 AM 695 Views

Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Sidious - 17/12/2011 10:25:47 AM 748 Views

Because a difference of a few % is negligible, and not even worth mentioning... Shannow - 17/12/2011 10:54:49 AM 601 Views

How could you possibly use Gateways... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2011 12:40:03 PM 633 Views

Repyling at bottom of thread for space reasons... *NM* Shannow - 17/12/2011 02:57:43 PM 374 Views

Only slight diffence I have is regarding general AS strength darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 04:45:49 PM 706 Views

I think it was just Aes Sedai hyperbole RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/12/2011 09:51:00 PM 557 Views

And entirely based off your shared assumption. Fanatic-Templar - 14/12/2011 05:15:51 AM 758 Views

Actually that's a lot of logical assumption. *NM* LadyLorraine - 13/12/2011 01:28:00 PM 339 Views

But... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:06:15 AM 557 Views

And darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 05:07:13 PM 660 Views

Yes Cannoli - 13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM 814 Views

Re: Yes RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM 717 Views

Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry, Shannow - 13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM 777 Views

There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM 741 Views

None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... Shannow - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM 651 Views

But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM 638 Views

What Rand is doing... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:43:08 AM 760 Views

That would make sense given Min's vision RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/12/2011 04:37:56 PM 561 Views

Wait.. I DIDN'T write that! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM 640 Views

Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:" Shannow - 17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM 735 Views

You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM 679 Views

On gateways Sidious - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM 719 Views

Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha. echooff - 19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM 915 Views

I suspect he knows that... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM 632 Views

Nope...some maths problems in your post. Shannow - 19/12/2011 07:41:29 PM 683 Views

But 64 square feet is not Elayne's maximum... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2011 02:46:50 AM 632 Views

But Shielding is also relative. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/12/2011 09:35:11 PM 1889 Views

Re: Underestimating Forsaken strength Tedtheman - 22/12/2011 05:24:53 PM 677 Views

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<quote id="237750"><quote id="237747">I don't think the answer is as clear cut as you would think because we do know that it is the metaphysics of the Pattern that determines whether souls have access to the One Power once embodied. Namely, Team Jordan and RJ himself have stated that not only is channeling tied to the soul, but strength is variable across incarnations, strength has more to do with the body than the soul and that channeling is both a combination of a genetic recessive gene but also metaphysical elements, such as the Soul and whether the Pattern needs it. Further, we are told that Talents occupy a more circular relationship than a genetic explanation would indicate; we are told that it is the Soul's Talent that not only determines a persons' interest in healing others, but also impacts their ability to be skilled with healing weaves. To add fuel to this fire, we are told that the Pattern ultimately determines if the Talent is even needed. Basically, I now think that 'strength in the Power' is a limited way of understanding how it really works, since it ultimately seems that your destiny in the Pattern may actually be circular - ie: your importance to the Pattern determines the strength of your channeling in a physical body before you are incarnated, with momentary t'a'veren states increasing your ability still further as needed by The Pattern.</quote>

<quote id="237750">Maria gave an answer that described this type of circular pattern; in the case of this question, it was the Talent in Healing tied to the soul that lead women to become Wisdoms, not all of whom used the Power in their healing, but whose Talent and life experience resulted in a greater capacity for Healing weaves and healing in general. Almost as if their status of Healers was what is in their soul and not necessarily a 'Talent' or genetic potential:</quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>Luckers: In Knife of Dreams Ch. 23, 'Call to a Sitting', Tiana notes that many of the women who are strong in Nynaeve’s method of Healing used to be village Wise Women. She wonders why that should make any difference, and indeed it does seem to imply that their life experience in some way affected their degree of Talent. How would this work out under the understanding of Talent as a soul ability? Does life experience change the strength of the Talent, whilst soul ability decides if you have it? Or should we make a distinction between Talents which are skills—like Healing, or that Shielding Talent Berowin of the Kin has—and Talents which are abilities—like Foretelling, Wolfbrothering or Dreaming?</quote>

<quote id="237750">Maria: Okay, let’s look at this. Why did these women choose to be village Wise Women? Maybe they haven’t sparked, but the Talent is there. They may not understand it, but they feel that they should be healing the sick. So, instead of life experience affecting the Talent, I think that it’s more that the Talent affects the life experience. </quote>

<quote id="237750">Also, Aes Sedai have been taught that Healing is done one way, and that way is the only proper way. It’s sort of like the gesture limitation; if an Aes Sedai learns to make weaves using gestures, she’ll have a really hard time making the weave without making the gesture. I think that the former Wise Women are more open to learning the new way, and that gives them another advantage at it.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">Team RJ stated that channeling was tied to the soul but the body affected the strength, which is why I think it is interesting to think that the body may have less to do with the One Power ultimately and be more of a crutch. We know the souls are eternal, but it is the body that limits "strength". Since the body is tied to genetics, this has more to do with the physical realm than the metaphysical realm:</quote>

<quote id="237750">quote from Team RJ: </quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">Paraphrased Quote 2 from RJ:</quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>There were a few questions about his series, one that I asked was: if channeling was genetic, did the Forsaken need bodies that were genetically compatible for them to be able to use the power? </quote>

<quote id="237750">His answer was that channeling is not just a recessive or dominant gene, rather both genetic and in the soul.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">Another interesting quote regarding the metaphysical needs of The Pattern. In this quote, Maria clarifies that if the Pattern doesn't need a Talent, the Talent won't manifest. This is counter to how genetics are said to work and is probably why there can be Ages where there is no One Power while the souls of channelers could be reborn in such a time period:</quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>Brandon: My instinct knowing how Jim wrote and knowing the parallels in the notes would be that he would parallel the other Talents along the same lines. A wolf brother then would always have the ability to become a wolf brother and other things along those lines. I’m going off of instinct, so that is an asterisked answer. I can MAFO that and look it up and we can see what we can find, but he did like to parallel a lot of these things...16 </quote>

<quote id="237750">[Maria clarifies: Jim says of Talents: “A Talent is a special ability with the One Power. While the name is used for other things, a Talent is, in truth, something which is inborn in the person and not something that can be learned.” And there is mention of the Wheel throwing out what it needs on occasion, and there’s the phrase, “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.” The Wheel can give and take as it needs. I believe that the potential for a Talent is there, but it doesn't necessarily manifest each time a soul is born. If the Wheel needs the Talent, the Talent is there. But if the Wheel doesn't need it, it lies dormant.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">RJ clarified that burning out or being Stilled would only affect a current life i.e. their current physical body. This is noteworthy because it once again shows a difference between the physical realm and the metaphysics of the One Power - Siuan may be weaker in this life, but her soul's ability is not affected:</quote>

<quote id="237750">Quote 1:</quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>Question: Previously you have made it known that an individual who is severed will retain the ability to channel in his or her subsequent life, which connects the ability to channel with the soul. How does burning out affect ones ability to channel in the next life? Specifically, will an individual born with the spark but who burns out during his or her life have the inborn spark in a subsequent life?</quote>

<quote id="237750">Jordan: I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or severing affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">Quote 2:</quote>

<quote id="237750"><quote>Linda: Since the ability to channel seems to be primarily linked to the soul, if a Channeler is gentled/stilled, will this affect his/her soul in a [future] life as well, as in, will the ability to Channel still be lost? </quote>

<quote id="237750">Neptune: I think Linda is asking if the soul is immortal in Jordan's world.</quote>

<quote id="237750">Moderator: So...is it??</quote>

<quote id="237750">RJ: Yes, the soul is immortal.</quote></quote></quote>

<quote id="237750">All of the above simply says that the ability to channel is linked to the soul, but strength is limited by the physical body a sould happens to inhabit during a particular incarnation.</quote>

<quote id="237750">And clearly, female bodies are weaker than male bodies. Both physically and in terms of the One Power strength that they allow the chaenneler to possess.</quote>

<quote id="237750">A female suddenly deciding through sheer force of will that this limitation does not apply to her is in for a rude awakening, unfortunately.</quote>

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