Wheel of Time Messageboard: Well there we have it by Shannow

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Well there we have it Shannow Send a noteboard - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM

I don't know where you get all your figures from. They seem to be completely random and pulled out of a hat and not at all verifiable.Why was Nynaeve two-thirds of her full strength in book 4 and not at 50% or 90%?

Moghedien is conceivably much weaker than the others because she states that others in the AOL considered her not to be a threat meaning that many tiers exist above her. She has also never been seen with the other Forsaken prior to Moridin appearing and providing her with protection as his slave. Considering outright murder is encouraged in the Shadow, it is illogical to think that anyone is much weaker in the remaining 12 Forsaken. Any of the Forsaken would instantly kill a weaker opponent and yet they cannot do so with each other and dare not risk it. It therefore makes sense to suggest that all of the Forsaken are clustered close to maximum strength. They are after all the strongest channelers in the world.

It all comes down to Nynaeve:

Based on all the evidence we have of female strength progresssion, all the quotes relating to Nynaeve's strength, all the supporting evidence: What percentage of her strength had she reached in tSR?

That's all you need to answer, and the rest is a matter of logical deduction.

Ignoring the Forsaken, all the evidence points to Nynaeve being far from her full strength back then.

If the only reason you place her higher is the need to bring Moghedien closer to the other Forsaken, then you aren't assessing Nynaeve's strength with an open mind.

Come on, be honest: Based on all the information we have on Nynaeve in the entire series, if you had to put your life on it, what percentage of her full strength would you estimate her to be at in Book 4?

That's all that matters.

I think its mad to bet on that sort of thing. We have no idea what, or even if, RJ intended to show any demonstrable strength at these stages of the series.

I would say she was about 60 to 80% of her strength when she fought Moghedien. As always I do not claim that this is nearly accurate, which is one of my problems with your theory, and I definitely don't think anything can be extrapolated from it as you said. How the rest be logical deduction? We dont know anything about the strengths of Graendal or Semirhage relative to Nynaeve.

Moghedien is not useful either. I've said from the beginning of this debate that she is much weaker than the other women, so if her strength is 50 or 90, it still doesnt change my opinion that all of the other Forsaken are close to maximum strength i.e within ten percent of Rand's power.

So your gut feel is 60-80% of her maximum strength. I'd say my estimate of around 70% is slap bang in the middle of your assessment.

As for Semirhage. We know EXACTLY how close she is to Nynaeve's full strength. Sanderson said that she and Nynaeve are virtually equal in strength, with Nynaeve maybe a tad stronger.

So if Nynaeve is at 60-80% of her full strength when she MATCHES Moghedien, then it means that Moghedien is essentially 60-80% as strong as Semirhage.

That's pretty logical.

This message last edited by Shannow on 13/12/2011 at 01:37:08 PM

Edit 1 by Shannow on 13/12/2011 at 01:37:08 PM

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Underestimating Forsaken strength Nessarra - 11/12/2011 05:57:22 AM 1871 Views

Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Shannow - 11/12/2011 07:45:29 AM 775 Views

Re: Ah, my favourite topic makes a return... Nessarra - 11/12/2011 10:25:03 PM 790 Views

Yes, you are probably correct Sidious - 12/12/2011 06:26:07 AM 891 Views

Re: and some of the information given to us is flawed Watcher - 12/12/2011 07:38:59 PM 698 Views

The real question is - What percentage of her full strength did Nynaeve achieve by Book 4? Shannow - 12/12/2011 08:31:30 PM 728 Views

I find that unlikely Sidious - 12/12/2011 09:28:07 PM 696 Views

Easy question for you: Based on the evidence, what percentage of her strength was Nynaeve at in tSR? Shannow - 13/12/2011 07:09:56 AM 667 Views

Well.... Sidious - 13/12/2011 01:12:48 PM 730 Views

Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 01:36:45 PM 736 Views

Re: Well there we have it Sidious - 13/12/2011 02:06:14 PM 763 Views

Re: Well there we have it Shannow - 13/12/2011 02:12:10 PM 701 Views

Alivia may not even be stronger than Nynaeve... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:14:06 AM 773 Views

That wouldn't surprise me actually *NM* Sidious - 14/12/2011 07:46:47 AM 403 Views

Where would you place Egwene though? fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 09:13:46 AM 682 Views

Re: Where would you place Egwene though? Sidious - 14/12/2011 12:53:49 PM 680 Views

Bonfire next to a candle indeed. Hehehe... Shannow - 14/12/2011 05:50:34 PM 822 Views

fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 06:56:40 PM 633 Views

The same "step" you refer to seperates Egwene from normal Aes Sedai according to RJ... Shannow - 14/12/2011 07:14:55 PM 662 Views

Yes! And...? fionwe1987 - 15/12/2011 02:53:37 AM 671 Views

Yes I would agree with that Sidious - 14/12/2011 08:24:35 PM 822 Views

Alivia with an angreal > > > Cyndane TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 08:50:41 PM 601 Views

No Sidious - 14/12/2011 09:10:34 PM 687 Views

That makes no sense. TyrReborn - 14/12/2011 09:13:48 PM 752 Views

Correct. Shannow - 14/12/2011 09:43:53 PM 695 Views

Re: Correct. Sidious - 15/12/2011 05:54:37 AM 689 Views

So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Shannow - 14/12/2011 10:01:45 PM 1128 Views

Re: So many instances of logical laziness in that post... Sidious - 15/12/2011 06:16:01 AM 611 Views

There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Shannow - 15/12/2011 07:03:01 AM 695 Views

Re: There's always room for error, and in general I agree with some of your placements... Sidious - 17/12/2011 10:25:47 AM 748 Views

Because a difference of a few % is negligible, and not even worth mentioning... Shannow - 17/12/2011 10:54:49 AM 601 Views

How could you possibly use Gateways... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2011 12:40:03 PM 633 Views

Repyling at bottom of thread for space reasons... *NM* Shannow - 17/12/2011 02:57:43 PM 374 Views

Only slight diffence I have is regarding general AS strength darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 04:45:49 PM 706 Views

I think it was just Aes Sedai hyperbole RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/12/2011 09:51:00 PM 557 Views

And entirely based off your shared assumption. Fanatic-Templar - 14/12/2011 05:15:51 AM 758 Views

Actually that's a lot of logical assumption. *NM* LadyLorraine - 13/12/2011 01:28:00 PM 339 Views

But... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:06:15 AM 557 Views

And darius_sedai - 30/12/2011 05:07:13 PM 660 Views

Yes Cannoli - 13/12/2011 04:16:40 PM 814 Views

Re: Yes RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 04:47:17 PM 717 Views

Nah. Beyond the realm of possibility. Sorry, Shannow - 13/12/2011 05:12:40 PM 777 Views

There are a number of comments from Q&As that shows that this is possible and more complex. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 08:23:49 PM 742 Views

None of which I disagree with, but a far cry from women being weaker just due to believing it... Shannow - 13/12/2011 08:39:40 PM 651 Views

But that is my point: it wouldn't be merely force of will. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 13/12/2011 09:40:17 PM 638 Views

What Rand is doing... fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:43:08 AM 760 Views

That would make sense given Min's vision RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/12/2011 04:37:56 PM 561 Views

Wait.. I DIDN'T write that! fionwe1987 - 14/12/2011 03:02:04 AM 640 Views

Reply to your question of - "Why use Logain gateway comparison as evidence:" Shannow - 17/12/2011 03:08:19 PM 735 Views

You're basically saying "correlation equals causation"... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2011 06:18:47 AM 679 Views

On gateways Sidious - 18/12/2011 07:17:09 AM 719 Views

Might assume that Elayne is stronger in the Power than Aviendha. echooff - 19/12/2011 02:40:46 PM 915 Views

I suspect he knows that... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2011 05:53:00 PM 632 Views

Nope...some maths problems in your post. Shannow - 19/12/2011 07:41:29 PM 683 Views

But 64 square feet is not Elayne's maximum... fionwe1987 - 20/12/2011 02:46:50 AM 632 Views

But Shielding is also relative. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/12/2011 09:35:11 PM 1889 Views

Re: Underestimating Forsaken strength Tedtheman - 22/12/2011 05:24:53 PM 677 Views

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<quote id="237679"><quote id="237672"><quote id="237644"><quote id="237578">I don't know where you get all your figures from. They seem to be completely random and pulled out of a hat and not at all verifiable.Why was Nynaeve two-thirds of her full strength in book 4 and not at 50% or 90%?</quote>

<quote id="237679">Moghedien is conceivably much weaker than the others because she states that others in the AOL considered her not to be a threat meaning that many tiers exist above her. She has also never been seen with the other Forsaken prior to Moridin appearing and providing her with protection as his slave. Considering outright murder is encouraged in the Shadow, it is illogical to think that anyone is much weaker in the remaining 12 Forsaken. Any of the Forsaken would instantly kill a weaker opponent and yet they cannot do so with each other and dare not risk it. It therefore makes sense to suggest that all of the Forsaken are clustered close to maximum strength. They are after all the strongest channelers in the world.</quote>

<quote id="237679">It all comes down to Nynaeve:</quote>

<quote id="237679">Based on all the evidence we have of female strength progresssion, all the quotes relating to Nynaeve's strength, all the supporting evidence: What percentage of her strength had she reached in tSR?</quote>

<quote id="237679">That's all you need to answer, and the rest is a matter of logical deduction.</quote>

<quote id="237679">Ignoring the Forsaken, all the evidence points to Nynaeve being far from her full strength back then.</quote>

<quote id="237679">If the only reason you place her higher is the need to bring Moghedien closer to the other Forsaken, then you aren't assessing Nynaeve's strength with an open mind.</quote>

<quote id="237679">Come on, be honest: Based on all the information we have on Nynaeve in the entire series, if you had to put your life on it, what percentage of her full strength would you estimate her to be at in Book 4?</quote>

<quote id="237679">That's all that matters.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237679">I think its mad to bet on that sort of thing. We have no idea what, or even if, RJ intended to show any demonstrable strength at these stages of the series.</quote>

<quote id="237679">I would say she was about 60 to 80% of her strength when she fought Moghedien. As always I do not claim that this is nearly accurate, which is one of my problems with your theory, and I definitely don't think anything can be extrapolated from it as you said. How the rest be logical deduction? We dont know anything about the strengths of Graendal or Semirhage relative to Nynaeve.</quote>

<quote id="237679">Moghedien is not useful either. I've said from the beginning of this debate that she is much weaker than the other women, so if her strength is 50 or 90, it still doesnt change my opinion that all of the other Forsaken are close to maximum strength i.e within ten percent of Rand's power.</quote></quote>

<quote id="237679">So your gut feel is 60-80% of her maximum strength. I'd say my estimate of around 70% is slap bang in the middle of your assessment.</quote>

<quote id="237679">As for Semirhage. We know EXACTLY how close she is to Nynaeve's full strength. Sanderson said that she and Nynaeve are virtually equal in strength, with Nynaeve maybe a tad stronger.</quote>

<quote id="237679">So if Nynaeve is at 60-80% of her full strength when she MATCHES Moghedien, then it means that Moghedien is essentially 60-80% as strong as Semirhage.</quote>

<quote id="237679">That's pretty logical.</quote>

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