Active Users:939 Time:15/11/2024 09:03:17 AM
Re: Yes, Andor is in a bad position. DomA Send a noteboard - 12/11/2011 04:08:40 AM
But if Altara were to be secured under Tuon, there is no way Murandy or Ghealdan could stand for long, either, worsening Andor's position even further.


I don't think geography matters so much anymore now that the Seanchan have Travelling. They're far more likely to go for Andor before they go for Murandy or Ghealdan, if you ask me.

I don't think the Seanchan are so terrible either, as Rand himself has figured out once he saw how they ruled in Ebou Dar. That's the last factor that tipped him over the edge and brought his epiphany: he saw how Tuon had accomplished there what he had sought desperately to accomplish to unite the nations, put the abuses of the nobles to end, feed the people and alleviate their burden, and was deeply enraged by it and it drove him over the edge, nearly balefiring the city because Tuon are succeeded where he has failed.

We have yet to get a Rand's POV of the Seanchan post epiphany. I think the likes of Elayne or Egwene may not like what he has to say about them.

If we look at the Seanchan from the perspective of channellers, yes, they're horrible to them. (though they do have reasons for this, it's not pure irrational hatred like racism). If we look at the Seanchan from the perspective of the incompetent rulers and petty masters they seek to replace with competent and dutiful people of their own, yes they appear quite horrible. The POV trap is massive with the Seanchan, as it's from these perspectives we've mostly seen them (they had to remain a credible threat and antagonist to the end). But Jordan has shown us they're not nearly as horrible as many characters believe except in how they threat channellers as sub-humans, and deal with criminals ruthlessly (even Mat now could attest to this).

If we put that aside, though, they're objectively on the whole much better rulers than anything in the Westlands, even the more enlightened nations like Andor (which administation, if fair minded, is still fairly primtive). Most of the nations of the Westlands are still ruled in medieval fashion, or are oligarchies, where anything approaching democratic principles is reserved strictly to chosen few, like the most powerful merchants. In comparison, the Seanchan are more advanced, what in real life would correspond to enlightened monarchs, with a far more advanced bureaucracy and the real means to rule efficiently. They also have an advanced court system, that seeks to keep those with a lot of power very busy with their duties, and well away from the population they might be tempted to oppress.

They're not even ruthless as such, their justice is, but their justice is fair, and equal for everyone, from the smallest folk to Tuon herself. They all face justice equally if they fail in their duties to society, the main difference is that the higher ranking and honored you are, the heavier the duties, and the more you're scrutinized and the more laws apply to you, and often the harshest the punishment if you commit a crime. For all that, High Blood families seems to have remained loyal and dutiful for centuries. Anyone beneath the ruling classes and bureaucrats are pretty much left alone, but not abandonned either (the way Andor has totally abandonned whole areas it claims but no longer administrate or protect) - that is the state provides services, and protects all its citizens under the law, but otherwise don't interfere in their lives. Under their system, the blood nobility still exists, but even the smallest commoner if he/she can serve through work or talent in a special way can see himself or herself rise in status - and in some cases can even see his/her bloodline rise to noble status, while even the highest born can be stripped of everything if their betray their duties, the duties they are paid for with privileges and status.

Whenever the Seanchan reclaimed a land, they've enforced their justice, put an end to disorders and put in place the Imperial system and its hierarchy, but any local person, high or low, they had no legal reason to remove from office has been left in place, and from the get go explicitely trusted to be loyal to their serment of allegiance, until he/she proved otherwise. Local customs and ways are respected, people are paid for their services to the last dime. This isn't the behaviors of oppressors, as the Westland nobility and the AS would have it, it's the behavior of responsible rulers, very aware of their duties. It's not different from the perspective on the duties of rulership held by Elayne, or the views on the duties of a noble of Davram and Faile Bashere. And that's eons away from the behavior of Tairens in Cairhien, for instance.

Their army is also by a long shot the most disciplined, responsible and professional, well paid for its services and it appears, largely uncorrupted. No looting, no rape, no oppression of the conquered, no massacre. No wonder to them armies that answer to no one (and all too often have oppressed), like the COL, are abominations. In most places they've conquered so far, the Seanchan have acted as liberators of populations from oppressors or incompetent exploiters - and they did so with almost surgical precision, avoiding shedding any more blood than necessary. The Children of the Light were tyrants, fanatical and abusive, the nobility totally useless puppets, pampered and living off the sweat of the population and offering nothing at all in return. Not many in Amadica must regret the change of regime. Tylin was all but powerless and no competent enough to change anything. She had to rule in fact barely a few leagues around her city - a mayor in truth more than a Queen - and even then she could not even keep her small territory in order, with a whole district of her capital being one of the most dangerous and criminalized areas of the continent. The same for Tanchico, where people starved and suffered because of the nobility's infighting before the famine even began anywhere else. It was the other cesspit where people if they dared walking on the wrong streets of the capital risked their lives.

So far it's extremely chaotic lands the Seanchan have seized and put back in exemplary order, without oppression of the population. What would they have done in a nation like Andor or the Borderlands, but approve of how the nobility ran things, make them swear allegiance to the Empress and leave them after to their own devices?

Even the so-called "slavery" isn't as dark as it seems. There's not much difference between forcing criminal to serve, as an example, and putting criminals to work in prison, for very modest wages.

Of course it's a long way from a democracy or a republic - and there are some fairly unsavoury aspects to their rule, but it's far from a barbaric or even primitive government. It's even a step beyond the absolutist monarchies, as the Empress herself is bound by Law.

The biggest threat they represent at this point isn't even military. Rather, it's social and political. The more this goes on, the more the WT and the Asha'man are in danger of losing the PR war. The Asha'man are already feared, and the WT has a very damaged reputation even among its allies like Andor and the Borderlands, and its traditional aloofness may bring it down in the end, if Egwene doesn't have the foresight of putting all the Aes Sedai back to a real life of service to the people.

Otherwise, why stand with the Tower and give your life fighting the Seanchan to keep them out of your land, when surrendering to them would give you a better life, without losing your way of life, your goods, not even your "state" (and fairly fuzzy concept to most people in the current state of political development) and probably not even your ruler (of course, not if she's AS like Elayne), and in exchange getting better protection, likely better living conditions in general (taxes would at least be spent efficently), chances to rise in society, and safety anywhere you go? It's a lot in return for the fairly small price of nearly worshipping not the living person, but the position itself of head of state who oversees it all and ensure the system works (a position which is by far the biggest burden to bear in the whole Empire)....

So what would really be so bad if the Seanchan absorbed Ghealdan, a nation in shambles with ineffective rulers, or the sad excuse for a nation that's Murandy, where the population is left to the whims of the local petty lords?

Reply to message
Ghealdan needs a road - 04/11/2011 07:05:21 AM 1244 Views
Ghealdan does have a road to the east. - 04/11/2011 02:37:38 PM 824 Views
I think his point is that road goes through Seachan held northern Altara. *NM* - 04/11/2011 06:10:17 PM 294 Views
Only if they stay on a southern course. Altara is actually farther south. - 04/11/2011 07:43:01 PM 583 Views
Not according to the map you provided. - 04/11/2011 09:01:50 PM 623 Views
Yes it does, actually. - 09/11/2011 07:45:25 PM 589 Views
No, no it doesn't. - 10/11/2011 03:16:19 AM 706 Views
I think you are incorrect, but not b/c of map - because of what the projection of force would need - 10/11/2011 03:07:43 PM 630 Views
Re: I think you are incorrect, but not b/c of map ... - 10/11/2011 06:05:07 PM 598 Views
Yes, Andor is in a bad position. - 11/11/2011 10:05:09 PM 626 Views
Re: Yes, Andor is in a bad position. - 12/11/2011 04:08:40 AM 686 Views
The really atypical atrocity in the Seanchan's conquests... - 12/11/2011 06:55:33 AM 571 Views
Re: The really atypical atrocity in the Seanchan's conquests... - 16/11/2011 09:30:09 PM 689 Views
Oh, is that what you think happened? - 17/11/2011 06:04:12 AM 662 Views
Re: Oh, is that what you think happened? - 18/11/2011 06:57:53 PM 642 Views
Re: Oh, is that what you think happened? - 19/11/2011 12:50:19 AM 793 Views
Re: Oh, is that what you think happened? - 21/11/2011 09:04:03 PM 571 Views
Proof That a Picture is Worth a Thousand Words *NM* - 11/11/2011 04:49:21 AM 281 Views
Re: Proof That a Picture is Worth a Thousand Words - 11/11/2011 10:40:43 PM 594 Views
Ability to survive - 05/11/2011 02:53:26 PM 656 Views
naw demandred will protect them *NM* - 05/11/2011 10:18:56 PM 260 Views
Ghealdan is the flyover country of Randland. No one cares. *NM* - 05/11/2011 04:26:11 AM 266 Views
A road north would be useless at this point. - 05/11/2011 04:23:11 PM 626 Views
Choices of Ghealdan - 07/11/2011 05:55:38 AM 606 Views
That might be a good long term plan - 07/11/2011 01:13:59 PM 544 Views
Re: Choices of Ghealdan - 07/11/2011 03:38:03 PM 641 Views
IIRC it has one rare mineral - 07/11/2011 06:27:12 PM 622 Views
A couple points - 08/11/2011 12:31:57 PM 649 Views
A road to the TR would not be profitable. - 08/11/2011 12:57:18 PM 561 Views
Re: A road to the TR would not be profitable. - 08/11/2011 06:33:09 PM 653 Views
They have alternatives actually - 15/11/2011 02:48:22 PM 533 Views
Re: They have alternatives actually - 18/11/2011 07:16:01 PM 531 Views

Reply to Message