Maybe the problem is the imbecile articulating the conflict.
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 03/07/2011 01:20:57 AM
"Perhaps for a short burst," Rand said. "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, though it will give him more strength. It must be done regardless. Think of our task as climbing a tall stone wall. Unfortunately, we are delaying, running laps before attempting the climb. Each step tires us for the fight to come. We must face him while still strong. That is why I must break the seals."
I think Rand is right that Breaking the Seals won't immediately free the Dark One. But the second part of his statement makes no sense
I wonder if Sanderson has even grasped the issue that many WoT readers have addressed in previous books - with the situation as it is, the Dark One is winning by default. The world is collapsing around Rand & co, as the various effects of the Dark One's growth in power weaken, demoralize and kill off more and more people.
since he acknowledges that breaking the Seals will make the DO stronger than he is now. If they need to face the Dark One when they're still strong, making him stronger when they don't know how to defeat him makes absolutely no sense.
The only way this makes sense is if Rand has an immediate plan to defeat the DO after breaking the Seals. But, by his own statements, he does not...
Why ruin a strategy that has worked for his side fairly well up until now? A lot of his greatest success has come from reacting on the fly. Remember the first strong blow dealt against the Dark One (and possibly the strongest dealt by the good guys over the course of the series - whatever the impression of shallow readers, killing off a minion here or there hardly ranks with breaking the Dark One's grip on reality, however temporarily) occurred because Moiraine dragged three ta'veren, one of whom was almost certainly the Dragon Reborn, into the lion's den, seeking to place these apparently vital resources for the Light in Tarmon Gaidon, in the path of the Dark One's next possible strike in the hope that they might divert it somehow. And it worked. Rand didn't have much of a plan for his next two confrontations with Ba'alzamon, and raced off half-cocked in reacting to Rahvin and Couladin. He deliberately tried to avoid that with Sammael, but that was where he began taking his first steps to Dark Rand. Maybe it's a good thing that he seems to be embracing his old modus operandi. The only way this makes sense is if Rand has an immediate plan to defeat the DO after breaking the Seals. But, by his own statements, he does not...
"Callandor" he said. "It plays a part in this. You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."
Since he is missing something vital in his plan to seal the Bore, and is still missing it in the end of the book, his continued insistence on breaking the Seals immediately can only mean he wants to break them now, before he has a plan to defeat the Dark One.
Plan? What plan? Since he is missing something vital in his plan to seal the Bore, and is still missing it in the end of the book, his continued insistence on breaking the Seals immediately can only mean he wants to break them now, before he has a plan to defeat the Dark One.
Now, Egwene seems completely unaware of this plan. At their first meeting...
"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."
"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."
"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."
"That is why I came to you. To let you plan."
Okay, here Rand seems to imply that he knows how to seal the Bore again. Egwene doesn't seem to object to this at this point, though what Rand expects her to plan with regards to this is mysterious, and something Egwene really should have called him out on. Clearly, he was just being obstinate so that he could manipulate her into gathering support against his very ill-defined plan. So far so good.
I love how the easiest way to get her to do something is to ask her to help with something else. For all that people keep saying that about the Two Rivers men, how often does anyone actually get away with doing it to them? When presented with the reality of the situation and the stakes, they tend to reluctantly suck up their objections and do what is asked of them, in matters as great as embracing their destinies, and as trivial as accepting their romantic relationships. For all that Egwene likes to sniff about how stubborn, contrary or otherwise obstinate her old neighbors were back in the Two Rivers, she seems the least removed from this supposedly typical bit of pettiness from their old lives."You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."
"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."
"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."
"That is why I came to you. To let you plan."
Okay, here Rand seems to imply that he knows how to seal the Bore again. Egwene doesn't seem to object to this at this point, though what Rand expects her to plan with regards to this is mysterious, and something Egwene really should have called him out on. Clearly, he was just being obstinate so that he could manipulate her into gathering support against his very ill-defined plan. So far so good.
But somewhere along the line, this has morphed into something else in Egwene's head...
"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."
Ummm... where did that come from? When did planning change to this?
Because when push comes to shove, she's kind of gutless. She only takes risks when shoved into them or when they are unnecessary. She's always the first one to call a necessary tactic "madness" otherwise."Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."
Ummm... where did that come from? When did planning change to this?
If I had to sum up their positions, this is how I'd do it:
Rand: Step 1)Break the Seals 2)Figure out what to do 3) Defeat the DO
Egwene: Step 1)Figure out what to do 2)Defeat the DO without affecting the Seals.
Neither of these positions make any sense whatsoever, and are completely out of character, IMO.
Rand: Step 1)Break the Seals 2)Figure out what to do 3) Defeat the DO
Egwene: Step 1)Figure out what to do 2)Defeat the DO without affecting the Seals.
Neither of these positions make any sense whatsoever, and are completely out of character, IMO.
Not really. Egwene thinks Rand is going out on a limb when he plans to attack two nations with a force of Aiel three times the size of one that fought a dozen nations to a standstill. She's never enthusiastic about risks, unless they are frivolous or vainglorious attempts to garner attention to herself. As for Rand, as I note above, his tendency to win the fights he goes into without a plan is very much a character trait.
Rand has himself made statements that show his plan to be ill thought out. Egwene, who has never disregarded anything out-of-the-box for the heck of it, fails to see that breaking the Seals may be a part of the plan?
The ideal solution, of course, is
Step 1)Figure out what to do 2)Break the Seals 3)Immediately do what you planned and defeat the DO.
The ideal solution, of course, is
Step 1)Figure out what to do 2)Break the Seals 3)Immediately do what you planned and defeat the DO.
Yeah, but what do any of them know about the Dark One. Two important things to know when taking on an enemy are Know Yourself, and Know Your Enemy. They have spent 13 books figuring out the former, but have no idea anything beyond the most general facts about the latter. Perhaps they need to take his measure before deciding how to defeat him.
I think Egwene's Dream merely warns against Breaking the Seals before planning for the next step.
The dream did not warn against anything. There was no suggestion of any connotation of a warning or that this was something that needed to be averted. I took her dream to be simply a notification that it was going to happen, period. She had no forebodings or portents of doom - any negative impressions or opinions she gets from the dream are purely of her own distaste for the idea.
And I think this whole conflict, which came about only because Rand and Egwene didn't really talk about this whole situation, will be resolved pretty quickly, and was tacked on only so because of the book being split. The logic of both their ideas doesn't stand up to a few seconds of thought.
I think the real conflict in Merrilor is going to be about Rand's enforced peace with the Seanchan, and what the original conflict between Rand and Egwene was supposed to be in the un-split aMoL. The set-up has been there forever. Egwene's visceral hatred and fear of the Seanchan would make her the most obvious challenger to this plan, and I think every female Channeler in Merlillor would support her stand, resulting in a new version of the "Fateful Concord".
The original "fateful" conflict was over the need to take a necessary risk and one side being sticks in the mud, and refusing to countenance the required gamble. This has been the pattern of Egwene's and Rand's conflict from day one. She NEVER likes going along with ANY of his ideas, and it always has to be HER plan. I think this conflict is what RJ had in mind all along, and B-Sand is simply building up to it in an inept manner because he does not understand the characters well.
I think the real conflict in Merrilor is going to be about Rand's enforced peace with the Seanchan, and what the original conflict between Rand and Egwene was supposed to be in the un-split aMoL. The set-up has been there forever. Egwene's visceral hatred and fear of the Seanchan would make her the most obvious challenger to this plan, and I think every female Channeler in Merlillor would support her stand, resulting in a new version of the "Fateful Concord".
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
04/06/2011 07:21:21 PM
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Re: Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
04/06/2011 10:26:59 PM
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Re: Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
05/06/2011 01:55:19 AM
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Rand will break the seals with the purpose of...
06/06/2011 09:06:43 AM
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that's more than a little foolish if he doesn't already have a plan to reseal the bore
06/06/2011 01:08:38 PM
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Re: Rand and Egwene: An artificial conflict?
10/06/2011 11:16:20 AM
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Nope...
10/06/2011 05:13:55 PM
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Re: Nope...
11/06/2011 02:15:06 AM
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I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 05:17:53 AM
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Re: I'm referring to what he tells Min...
11/06/2011 11:18:12 AM
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Also the fact that he is playing Efwene to get leaders all in one place is explicitly stated
11/06/2011 11:26:18 AM
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I really like this idea
11/06/2011 06:53:34 PM
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Maybe the problem is the imbecile articulating the conflict.
03/07/2011 01:20:57 AM
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