Particularly the ones who believe they have all the answers about what is needed to "defeat" the Dark One (Egwene and Tuon are the two I have in mind). Both women believe that they should be able to direct the Dragon, to use him as a tool and/or force him to their wills. Both women are as stubborn and arrogant as they come where Rand is concerned, and neither one is willing to allow him to do what needs to be done without them dictating his actions. Egwene is a huge obstacle for him, one who is willing to start a war against him if he doesn't do what she wants, and Tuon is the same. The Pattern may attempt to push people to do things, but it can't force them. No matter how strong the Pattern is, it won't be able to push Egwene or Tuon into following Rand (I use the word follow because it fits the best, though I don't think they truly need to follow/obey him...they just need to let him do what he has to do and either stay out of his way and stop fighting each other and other followers of the Light).
It could also serve, particularly in Egwenes case, to remove support among their followers. The Dragons different role in Seanchan prophecy and their indoctrination makes them more resistant (though the Ever Victorious Armys defeats have surely eroded the latter for witnesses), but a lot of Egwenes support also rests on an unbroken string of victories. She even turns major disasters like letting her presumptuous humility get her captured into stunning victories. If she or Tuon causes the Dragons apparent death (or are thought to do so) their followers may question loyalty to women whose admirably strong wills kill the ONE person indispensable to the Lights victory. A lot of my view of Egwene is colored by the belief her job is to put the pieces in place for Rand during TG and Logain afterward, but causing Rands apparent death could well reveal to Aes Sedai what many others have already noted: The difference between Egwene and Elaida isn't that the latter was overbearing, it's that the former is more subtle and successful while remaining just as obstinately patronizing.
It may end the Arthurian parallels, but, again, I'm not sure if they were ever more than a device; in this case, it's a setup to answer the question of "what happens next...?" (snip) Removing Rand entirely might fit with making humanity master of the worlds destiny rather than just their own (which I think at the heart of Manicheanism) but I still expect it to be temporary. His role in the Last Battle, precisely what his actions would be, has always been closely concealed, so it's not surprising that would continue; it doesn't have to be anything more than Brandon not wanting to tip his (and Jordans) hand. That's not to say Rand won't be absent for much of the denouement; his absence IS clearly foreshadowed, and allowing humanity to remain indifferent spectators throughout wouldn't be consistent with Christian tradition, let alone the other more prominent WoT influences. However, just as I don't expect him to win Tarmon Gaidon single handedly, I don't think all the prophecies (and thirteen WoT books) were written so that humanity could win the Last Battle on their own, with the Dragon serving only as a rallying point before disappearing until a perfunctory curtain call at the end.
Were Rand to disappear and appear to be dead, I don't think Tuon or Egwene would take that as a defeat by the Shadow. They are both women of ego and action, women who truly believe that they have the wisdom and ability to do whatever has to be done. That, in my opinion, is part of the problem. Since they both see the Dragon as a tool for them to use to kill/contain the Dark One again, rather than as the Creator's Chosen One who must make decisions and act through his own choices and instincts and be the one to make the final call (after listening to other people's input). When you see a person as a tool, as a piece on a board, if you lose that tool you simply find another one. In some ways, Moridin's one-man game of sha'rah reflects how both Tuon and Egwene view the people around them - they are but pieces on a board to be maneuvered and used as the women choose. Rand, especially, fits that bill, and due to their views, they are obstacles to Rand's success. That doesn't mean I think Rand can win on his own - I think Rand, in ToM, told everyone else how it should be when he said he could not fight their battles for them - but he has a task and the others have their own tasks.
I've always thought Moridins sha'rah game was meant to illustrate a strong WoT theme that intelligent, forceful, experienced and RIGHTEOUS leaders fall to disaster if they consider everyone else beneath them in ability, integrity or both. That's THE problem with how Egwene treats Rand (and everyone else); she cares about him, but TRUSTS him with nothing important unless he has her careful and vastly superior oversight. How many otherwise ideal leaders have we seen that destroy? Egwene, I believe, will and was always intended to drive that home in the person of a major character very well liked, undeniably on the Lights side and everything one could ask for in a leader except for one fatal flaw. I'd question the need, except the point seems to have been generally lost. Hopefully she won't be turned and give her acolytes and excuse for a fall into irretrievable ruin; probably the worst scenario would be that she's turned, does horrible things and is then miraculously "Healed" by Nynaeve or Flinn or someone (even though it could be argued that a turned channeler isn't really "injured", just evil). Regardless, in regards to the sha'rah board I expect Egwene to be (painfully) broken of that habit one way or the other. Telling people how it was supposed to be is EXACTLY what Rand did in trusting and RELYING on the discretion of others to do their part without his direct supervision; it fits neatly with the importance the WoT attaches to free will. The failure of leaders on both sides to respect others autonomy (it's almost anathema to the Shadow, yet subordinates still invariably seek their own path to some degree) is, IMHO, a big theme in the series.
Rand manipulated Egwene into doing one of the things she needed to do - gathering the leaders and armies she could in order to get them allied against the Shadow - but he will not be able to manipulate her into backing off in her belief that he should obey her rather than think for himself. She is too stubborn. Tuon, too, is too stubborn, and when Aviendha shows up and tells Rand that the Dragon's Peace cannot be made because of the trouble it will cause, Rand will see that convincing the Seanchan to work with him is impossible, as is getting Egwene to stop behaving as though she should force everyone to her will when, at the Fields of Merrilor, she either tries to attack him or does what she can to turn everyone against him because she wants to stop him from breaking the seals.
I'm not sure Avi will tell him that, or convince him if she does. The Dragons Peace sucked for channelers within territory they already conquered, but the only reason it sucked for anyone else was because Avis granddaughter deceitfully presented a Seanchan contingency defense as a planned offensive, starting a war that led to the fall of many previously free and peaceful Westland kingdoms and the Seanchan hunting the Aiel to extinction, all because of false pride and lust for power based on her descent from Rand. That can be averted by simply teaching their kids to teach THEIR kids not be proud greedy liars, but if they don't do that preventing the Dragons Peace may not change much. I have a lot more hope for Tuon because I think Mat has real potential as a moderating force, as do his and Rands efforts with damane and captured Aes Sedai. Who's Egwenes comparable moderating force? Gawyn, the man who considers it a major compromise not to kill Rand until AFTER the Last Battle and apparently left his penis in Egwenes belt pouch? No, I don't expect Egwene to back down at Merrilor: I expect her to break like the oak because she won't bend like the willow.
The only way to make these two women get it through their thick skulls that their determination to force everyone to kneel to them, instead of attempting to ally the world against the Shadow, is for them to see, firsthand, what will happen if Rand is not there to do what has to be done. The only way to do that, is for Rand to disappear or "die". Personally, I don't think he will die. I think his attempt to inform everyone that they must fight their own part of this war, so he can do his part, was because he understands now. He may see that, with no Dragon's Peace, the only way for Egwene and Tuon to get it is to get the hell out of the way - that may be where Alivia comes in, in helping him "die".
I'd love it if he saw a way to fulfill Min's vision this way, to get Alivia to do something to assist him in appearing dead. If he were to get his hands on that dagger Elayne has, he could hide from the Shadow - save for Moridin, who would allow his disappearance due to the chaos it will cause. The fact that the next book is named A Memory of Light leads me to believe things will get ugly - it makes sense they would get ugly without Rand's help. I think the world would fall into a battle for control to begin with, between Egwene and Tuon, proving Moridin's belief that those who follow the "Light" are no different from the power-mongering jackasses of the Shadow. In the meantime, Shadowspawn would spread across the land and start destroying it, killing people left and right. Egwene would be convinced she could defeat them, as would Tuon, but they would get to a point where it was either a choice between allying with each other - and working together, without worrying about who is kneeling to whom - or die. Both of them need that, to be put in a position where they aren't treated like gods. Perhaps during all of this, Logain comes to his glory, leading the cleansed group of Asha'man as the Aes Sedai should be - doing what they can to protect the world without demanding that everyone kneel to them. They would gain respect and attention. It would irk Egwene to no end, but she is not stupid so she may realize that they need the Asha'man too, and Logain refuses to submit to either of them. Yet another alliance the way it should be - neither Egwene nor Tuon believe they should have to treat anyone as an equal, and it's something they need to learn.
Even then, the three allied groups would not be able to hold the world together for long, not without Rand to do his part (something Logain needs to realize as well, given his attitude toward the man in the past). Once they got that through their heads, Rand could appear again, with Alivia at his side. Once the world was desperate enough for survival, it would be ready for its savior. The allied groups could handle what they had to, could bring true stability and a true alliance between the world's people (instead of conquering everyone or manipulating them into subservience) and Rand could go ahead and finish his task, knowing that the future is secured by alliances that were made in good faith instead of being forced by his Dragon's Peace. That, to me, would make a great deal of sense.
I'd love it if he saw a way to fulfill Min's vision this way, to get Alivia to do something to assist him in appearing dead. If he were to get his hands on that dagger Elayne has, he could hide from the Shadow - save for Moridin, who would allow his disappearance due to the chaos it will cause. The fact that the next book is named A Memory of Light leads me to believe things will get ugly - it makes sense they would get ugly without Rand's help. I think the world would fall into a battle for control to begin with, between Egwene and Tuon, proving Moridin's belief that those who follow the "Light" are no different from the power-mongering jackasses of the Shadow. In the meantime, Shadowspawn would spread across the land and start destroying it, killing people left and right. Egwene would be convinced she could defeat them, as would Tuon, but they would get to a point where it was either a choice between allying with each other - and working together, without worrying about who is kneeling to whom - or die. Both of them need that, to be put in a position where they aren't treated like gods. Perhaps during all of this, Logain comes to his glory, leading the cleansed group of Asha'man as the Aes Sedai should be - doing what they can to protect the world without demanding that everyone kneel to them. They would gain respect and attention. It would irk Egwene to no end, but she is not stupid so she may realize that they need the Asha'man too, and Logain refuses to submit to either of them. Yet another alliance the way it should be - neither Egwene nor Tuon believe they should have to treat anyone as an equal, and it's something they need to learn.
Even then, the three allied groups would not be able to hold the world together for long, not without Rand to do his part (something Logain needs to realize as well, given his attitude toward the man in the past). Once they got that through their heads, Rand could appear again, with Alivia at his side. Once the world was desperate enough for survival, it would be ready for its savior. The allied groups could handle what they had to, could bring true stability and a true alliance between the world's people (instead of conquering everyone or manipulating them into subservience) and Rand could go ahead and finish his task, knowing that the future is secured by alliances that were made in good faith instead of being forced by his Dragon's Peace. That, to me, would make a great deal of sense.
The alliance between Egwene and Tuon makes sense but, mainly because I expect Egwene dogmatic obstinance to breaking the Seals will break her on the Pattern, I think Logains future glory will be leading the Aes Sedai as her successor, a consequence rather than a prerequisite of the Last Battle. The Pattern can't make anyone do anything, but it can run over those who refuse to do what it wants. Like my grandfather used to say, "I can't make you do it, but I can make you wish you had". There again I have more hope for Tuon than for Egwene; Tuon is has centuries of conditioning telling her that, as the Empress, all should, MUST, obey her without thought or question. Egwene has no such rationale to convince her of her infallible authority (indeed, just the opposite) yet she insists on it whether she's consciously aware of doing so or not. That's not to say she can't overcome something apparently in her nature rather than ingrained as with Tuon, but I don't expect it. I think it's at least as likely that she'll approach Tuon with something like "Look, I know you just attacked the Tower directly (twice) but the mean old Dragon is being an immature poopy head (i.e. not doing as he's told) and as a woman you should help me oppose him". Maybe one of the terms of the Dragons Peace will be that all Amyrlins must be released from adam. I do like the idea of the Dragons absence forcing the world to unify for survival on its own just as he attempted to do himself while present, and everyone learning for themselves what their concerted roles should be, I'm just not sure how large a role, if any, Egwene will have in that.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Wow, I never realized how much King Arthur there was in WoT.
12/05/2011 07:28:06 PM
- 1220 Views
Then (I'm not sure how to be both accurate and gentle) you didn't pay attention, & do NOT rule WoT.
14/05/2011 12:10:44 PM
- 541 Views
Re: Then (I'm not sure how to be both accurate and gentle) you didn't pay attention
14/05/2011 09:59:31 PM
- 5799 Views
Right; I've got a bad habit of ascribing that Foretelling to Alivia rather than Nicola.
15/05/2011 06:01:53 PM
- 6394 Views
Rand's "death" might serve to slap some sense into the senseless, arrogant, power-mongers...
16/05/2011 08:09:26 PM
- 529 Views
Quite possibly, yes.
19/05/2011 12:42:51 AM
- 998 Views
There's an Aravine around Faile. A woman, though... *NM*
16/05/2011 10:11:28 PM
- 393 Views
There doesn't appear to be much more connection than that to Agravaine/Morgase.
18/05/2011 11:37:19 PM
- 408 Views