You're partly right here. Tuon does think he should be her tool. But she has good (based on her world view) reasons. For one, the Prophesies say so. They may well be false, but what reason does Tuon have to believe that? Worse, when she saw the man, he was as close to evil as possible. That she did not bend to his will is to her credit, and not a sign of arrogance. Tuon does believe she is the one who should lead the fight against the DO. But not due to any untoward belief in her supremacy but because she thinks it has been foretold, and she has seen evidence (to her perspective) that she needs to step up to that, because the Dragon Reborn is insane.

I think Egwene would have probably come to a similar resolution if Dark Rand came up to her. But she met Rand after he was reforged, and it is very clear that forcing him to do anything isn't in her plan at all. Look at this statement:

"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said. "Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was".

She certainly means to dissuade him from his plan with the Seals, but there's none of the "I'm always right you're always wrong" perspective that you ascribe to her. As to why she's opposing him, more on that presently...


But does the Pattern want that at all? Tuon had Prophesies warning her otherwise, and she met him at a time where she was bound to resist any urge to follow him.

With Egwene, the Pattern did everything it could to encourage her opposition. First of all, while the Pattern couldn't force her to obey, it certainly could force her into silence. None of the Sitters in the Hall were able to say anything because of Rand's ta'veren nature. They were pressured into shutting up by the Pattern even though they had objections to Rand's actions. Egwene, on the other hand, felt no pressure at all.

Added to that, she had a Dream the moment Rand stepped into Tar Valon. Whether Egwene interpreted it right, or is disastrously wrong about the Dream is immaterial. What matters is that the Pattern threw this Dream that was bound to make her question Rand's plan just as he readied to inform her of it! Not only did the Pattern allow her to oppose Rand, it encouraged it.

This may be because Rand's plan is indeed flawed as Egwene believes. Or the flaw may be something neither Egwene nor Rand sees. Or the opposition of Egwene and Rand may serve another purpose, like getting the world together, and would disappear when they had an actual conversation about it. Or another Dream may come up that changes Egwene's perspective. Or Aviendha's warning's about Rand's plan to force an alliance with the Seanchan may make him question his Seal plan.

Whatever ends up happening, and whoever turns out to be right (and I think this genuinely is up in the air), it does seem clear that the Pattern drove this opposition. It created a situation where neither would bow to the other. Now, Rand won't follow Egwene, but nor does he want her to follow him, as his actions so clearly showed. Similarly, Egwene may have all intentions to oppose Rand's plan, but she doesn't believe he should (or would) just do as she says.

Then there is the parallel to LTT and Latra Pose as well. Even that shows that the Pattern is clearly nudging this division forward, not trying to prevent it.


Egwene would certainly believe it is a huge blow from the Shadow and likely means defeat. Tuon would believe that even more, since no matter who gives the orders, she does believe the DR is critical to defeat the DO. They'll both also continue fighting on, as will almost anyone who's made it to the inner circle surrounding Rand. None of them are panzy enough to just give up and accept defeat.


Leaving aside whether either of them believes any such thing, doesn't past evidence suggest that the Dragon must, in fact, not be free of opposition? Lews Therin acted as he saw fit, and that saved the world. But if he had convinced the women to go with him, that would have meant the end of the world too. If Latra Pose had been able to convince him, that would have been the end of the world too. In short, there is no "One True Hero". Just as there is no One Power, but instead two aspects of it in constant conflict, one male, one female.

While it is clear that neither Rand nor Egwene nor Tuon is motivated by such a beleif, it is also clear that there have been some extraordinary gymnastics involved in making them all believe theirs is the right course of action. And perhaps the true solution, once again, is not the result of any one plan but the result of several different plans in conflict, just as the conflict between saidin and saidar is the way Creation moves forward.

And I don't really know about Tuon, since her belief in the Patter is so much less enunciated, but I don't see any evidence of Egwene believing Rand should be her tool. That was Elaida. But it would be reasonable to say Egwene believes they are all tools, and that its as much her duty to follow what she knows as it is Rands to follow what he knows.


If that is indeed Egwene's viewpoint, then why not have Rand assassinated and use someone more pliable? I think there's no evidence at all that Egwene doesn't think there's something special about Rand. To the contrary, most often she focuses on that too much, and forgets that she knows the man behind the Champion. She's only recently come to realize otherwise.


Then why is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps Egwene's task is to be, for want of a better phrase, the "devil's" advocate? Whether Rand's plan to break the Seals is actually wrong or not (he clearly has it right that they need to be broken sometime. The true debate is when), he himself admits that he doesn't know how to reseal the DO. By her objections, Egwene may well push him to that answer.

That is, after all, the key difference between the last time and now. LTT and LPD had two competing plans, both of which in their entirety would have lead to disaster. This time around, Rand's plan is to break the Seal and wait for an epiphany. Egwene's "plan" is to wait for an epiphany before breaking the Seals. Neither of them has the final solution, but perhaps they'll help each other reach it by sticking to their genuine beliefs rather than kowtowing to the other?


Will he want to? She clearly can't manipulate him into following her view. He too cannot change her. And the reason isn't because they stubborn or egotistic but because they have genuine reasons to believe they're right. Who even knows how Rand will react when he learns that Egwene is objecting because of a Dream she had? Given that he now knows about Dreaming in detail, he may change his mind. Again, who knows how Egwene will react when Rand actually describes his rationale?

The true reason for thier disagreement is probably lack of communication (as that has been the theme throughout). In their meeting, Rand did not explain why he planned to break the Seals because he wanted to rile Egwene into opposing him. Egwene never got to explain her Dream, and it is uncertain if she would have in public anyway. Neither is making a fully informed decision, and I think judging either of them at this point is rash. Let's wait till they have their meeting (if they ever get to it, given what's happening in Caemlyn).


You paint a very one sided picture, though. Yes, Egwene stubbornly believes that she's got it right about the Seals. Rand does too. He also stubbornly believes that his plan for the Seanchan is the best. But just as Avi's revelations may change his mind, so can his revelations change Egwene's and Egwene's revelations change his. I see no point in assigning blame to anyone till they're all fully informed. If Egwene sticks to opposing Rand if he is able to disprove her interpretation of the Dream, then we can assign blame. Same if Rand refuses to change his plan after hearing Avi's warning, or if he thinks Egwene's dream is real, but doesn't factor it in any way.

For now, I think it is necessary to understand that the Pattern has given them all very good reasons to believe they're the one's on the right path.


If that were so, why in the world would Egwene write that she appreciates Darlin's allegiance to Rand? She can't be lying for political profit since she cannot lie. If she really wanted to make people kneel, she should have been furious that a noble writes to the Amyrlin Seat that he won't betray the Dragon for her!


I fail to see how you can prove that both are doing anything but that.


If this is so, the Pattern screwed up big time by giving Egwene two hints that Rand is in fact not dead when he pretends to be. Rather, those two dreams, as well as her second Accepted test hint that perhaps Egwene would be on the inside of Rand's plan to "die and disappear".

This scenario also doesn't explain the hints that Egwene and Tuon will confront Rand. In fact, that Dream is intensely problematic because I can't conceive of any way in which Egwene would side with Tuon against Rand. Egwene's greatest fear are the Senachan, and she hates them fairly irrationally. Tuon thinks all Aes Sedai are dangerous, and will likely see the leader of AS as the worst. It would need some major twist to make those two stand together, and I don't even see Rand's plan to destroy the Seals as serving to do that.


Hmmm... I've always wondered what was the point, in tGH, of having Egwene feel Rand's absence when he was in the Portal Worlds. Whatever Alivia does would have to mask Rand from that, and also from Moridin and Lanfear's ta'veren finding abilities. Further, with Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve knowing that dead heroes go to TAR, what's to stop them from searching for him there? I'm not saying he won't fake his death, just that there's a lot of hiding to do to make it look authentic.

As for Egwene and Logain... the stage has been long set for them to work together. For one, there are repeated hints that Egwene doesn't think the Asha'man are so bad, but for the taint, and we saw further evidence of that in ToM (where she felt that the absence of the taint made Asha'man bonding AS more acceptable). Second, there's the fact that she let Logain free. He isn't about to forget that. Lastly, Taim is soon going to become a problem for Egwene as well. Add the Dreamspike in the BT, and there's a definite chance that Logain and Egwene will soon collaborate over Taim. Egwene and Tuon, or Logain and Tuon are the true tough ones. And since Egwene and Tuon are supposed to confront Rand over something, I don't think his death will bring them together and make them learn not to interfere with his actions. I think there's something we're all missing.


God, I hope not. If Rand has to commit suicide to convince the world they need him, it would be the worst sort of grand standing, and I fail to see how the main protagonist of this series will end up doing that. I think any leader who uses his absence, and the ensuing destruction, as a way to convince people they should follow him is the worst sort of person. I don't think that is in Rand's character at all.