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Right; I've got a bad habit of ascribing that Foretelling to Alivia rather than Nicola. Joel Send a noteboard - 15/05/2011 06:01:53 PM
Never understood why; I'm thinking of the right character, but I always refer to the damane rather than the Accepted.
Alivias Foretelling of Rand in the boat with three women being carried off wounded

That's Nicola's and it doesn't say wounded but "he who is dead yet lives". It's really hard to see how "wounded" here could fit the bill of the apparent contradiction between dead and alive (and even more how it could fit "to live you must die", as with a simple delving Elayne or Aviendha, both present, could tell right away Rand isn't dead but just on the brink of death. And Nynaeve follows Rand closely - where is she if he isn't dead? Min's viewing also had the three women standing over Rand's bier. Of course Jordan has already played it "straight" (with the version in which Arthur is dead or magically in a death-like sleep, anyway) with this foretelling, which is definitely not evidence he will play it straight to the end and not twist it upside down, though the fact in one of the versions in which Arthur is carried off to Avalon in a magical sleep that looks like death, he is to awaken one day at the call of an horn at the moment of England's greatest need, when dragons rise to threaten the land, is suspicious, given that in WOT dead heroes are brought back by the Horn of Valere... and the real reason why the Horn must be at the LB is one of the series's mysteries, as it's not mentionned in the KC, which probably means it's an ace in the sleeve the Wheel doesn't want the Shadow to have - nor it appears Rand - and thus probably is a key element). Another mystery is when Moridin intends Rand to die, and how Rand might die at the moment and in the way Moridin wants him to, without playing in the Shadow's hands.

I couldn't remember the quote exactly, but what WOULD fit the definition of "dead yet alive"? Zombie Rand? "Wounded" makes as much sense as anything else on the table (to the extent anything IS on the table). There's simply no way to tell whether Jordan is going to remain true to the myth all the way to the end, particularly since there are multiple versions of that frequently leave the issue ambiguous.
Rand's final fate may not be tied to Arthuriana much, if at all. The Arthurian cycle has barely anything to do with the manichean DO/SG storyline at all (that belongs a lot more with the various religious myths, from Christian apocalypse to Zoroastrian myth, and Jain myth and the norse apocalypse etc.), and it all culminates with the battle of Camelot (Camlann, ie: Caemlyn).

It sounds likely to me Jordan also intended to wrap most of his Arthurian parallels at Caemlyn instead of SG, including Rand's "death" and his going to Avalon, and thus for the events at SG to enter "uncharted territory" (and the prophecies concerning those events are few and vague.. twice dawns the day, Rand going to SG and the blood on the rocks, the three as one and the sword of light is about it... and this isn't Arthurian elements, not even celtic). For sure Jordan twisted the Arthurian facts enough - the details if usually not the very important things (eg: Callandor did mark Rand as TDR - and there's more than this because it's not only Excalibur, it was also the San'angreal.. to be filled with the essence of life it magnifies, and for now it confirmed who Rand truly was, and it confirmed the immortality of his soul, and the belief in rebirth of the souls... will it play another role in Rand's "immortality" at the end remains to be seen.. but it's fairly clear it's final role in humanity's salvation is not as Excalibur but as the San'angreal, and perhaps the origin of the myth, following Jordan's fiction... and let's remember Christ drank from it before willingly going to his death, and it was filled with the blood pouring from the wound in his side... all important stuff RJ no doubt intended to play on at the LB) - but for all that there's still a strong element of predictability when it comes to the really big arthurian moments that he kept generally more than recognizable - and also it must fit themes as RJ almost always remained faithful to the arthurian themes even when he twisted the plot and reshuffled the cast. It would be different had he not announced it repeatedly and so early (about three in a boat, I mean), but having done that, it's nearly as predictable as Rand taking Callandor in the Stone of Tear to be recognized as the true DR by the world, one way or another. I get the feeling the "twist" in this case is that unlike the Arthurian legend, "three in a boat" is not the ending, all the more when you consider a dream of Egwene, where a man lies on a narrow cot (ie: a funeral bier), and outside a funeral pyre is already being built though she feels the man isn't dead and it's extremely important for the world he doesn't die, and outside there are both people in mourning and people cheering... If that man is Rand, that really doesn't suggest a post-LB scene, but something to happen between the meeting at the Fields and the strike at SG, and at the very least it's likely to concern the battle now starting at Caemlyn, which already shows a few Arthurian parallels. It's even there, in a city burned down by the Shadow where Shadowspawn and Dreadlords hunt the streets, that Egwene in her test for acceptance had this episode, no doubt very distorted but like the others with elements of twisted truth, where Rand begs her to kill him... or he would be the Shadow's (and this could mean a plot twist is that it's there Moridin has planned Rand to die and the DO to take his soul, not at SG as generally assumed. Removing TDR when the LB starts with certainly be a "betraying of hope" for the Light.).

It sounds to me like it's the big "plot twist" that will prevent Rand from striking at SG early after he breaks the seals: he won't survive the breaking of the seals long - as he will in some way or another "die" as he and his "Arthurian forces" rush back to Caemlyn (we have to keep in mind that Sanderson earlier spoke that the event at the climax of ToM would mark the true beginning of the LB, and it's the battle that begins in the epilogue, not the meeting at the Fields where Rand is to break the seals) and leave the world to face the DO without him for most of the LB, before he comes back (or awakens) at the end, for the events at SG. Jordan may already have prepared the ground, by having Rand tell his people he won't lead them in the LB. Rand may even do so willingly.. if he did, he would simply follow where Moiraine has gone before, to at least apparent "death" and maybe true death, leaving the scene completely because somehow he must - and the Finns told him to live he must die... but with his link to Moridin, the last tie he keeps to the Shadow since his epiphany, Rand can hardly fake his death. He might have to die for real to break that tie to face the LB without it.

Mat is coming back soon as "warleader", Perrin and Elayne are arising as the force holding nations together (Elayne becoming the bridge betweem them and the Tower, but also the AS who as a Queen in her own right defends the rights of the nations in front of the desired hegemony of the WT... It long wanted an AS Queen again, but it gets one that intends to stand up for her nation that looks more and more like an Empire or a new Covenant of the Nations by the minute...), Logain is supposed to step up over Rand in some way, to reap glory, and he has already been established as the man with the wisdom to see Taim's real allegiance, Egwene has returned the Tower to its traditional role and real mission to unify the world against the Shadow, Aviendha is rising as the leader the Aiel need to turn the tide of a future only she has foreseen, Lan holds the north, Loial will likely soon lead the Ogier, and Min and Cadsuane are busy figuring out what Rand needs to do at SG.. There seems to be a big gap in the prophecies between here and there. It's really not all that obvious what Rand's role might be in all of this, through the LB, aside from the SG events... as if he didn't have one. As for Tuon, the resolution is already foreshadowed as happening between her (or a Seanchan woman) and Egwene, and if Rand were to die her prophecies, if they are indeed false, would be exposed as such in about the only way she'd have no choice but to believe, and she would have no choice but to make her own decisions about the LB without blindly aligning herself with prophecies. Finally, it also seems obvious part of the "world must be as one" prophecy will be fulfilled at the Fields of Merrilor(at the north east, and bringing together the northern and eastern nations)) whereas Tuon is fulfilling the second part in parallel by mobilizing the west and south for a big push, and that afterward, it will be up to Egwene and Tuon to see they must "help each other" or die alone (which I doubt will happen too early, before the Seanchan indeed screw up "The Light's" plans in the LB first - the set up is way to elaborate for this not to happen to an extent.).

It would make much sense to me, as a big element in WOT so far is that the world is split between those who fear the Dragon (that would now include Egwene in a way) and those who tend to think the LB concern the Dragon and not them (which in a minor way include even Perrin and Mat, who both seem to think they'll have to be there, but count on Rand to take the lead and show them what to do...). It would be quite interesting to see how everyone would do if you suddenly removed Rand from the equation. It's one thing for Egwene to step up and try to oppose Rand's plans, but what's her plans and how would she do if she had to hold the world without Rand there to fight the LB - what would she offer the world then, really... and it's to her, the Amyrlin Seat, the world - those who don't stupidly cheer, thinking that with Rand's death the LB will simply go away - would turn and ask "what now?" (and hint, hint: Egwnene's the one who had a dream that a man, most likely Rand, isn't really dead...) and what would Perrin and Mat do if they believed Rand dead, and how would Rand's three women do if they lose him suddenly and without a goodbye and not on the day they think they'll see coming long in advance?, and how would Nynaeve face her failure to save Rand, and how would Tuon react to the collapse of all her beliefs with Rand's death when the world's only chance in her view is if the Return was complete and the Dragon was the servant of the CT in the LB, and how would the believers in TDR and the KC at large face this blow... give in to despair, or hold to their faith that somehow they must go on and fight, and survive until a strike at SG and the Dragon as promised will be there to face the DO on the last day.... even on the Shadow's side it's interesting as the three main Forsaken (Lanfear, Moridin, Demandred) all want Rand dead at their own hands... Moridin's plans, and Demandred's and Lanfear's main motivation, would be shredded. I don't know it's what RJ planned, but it would certainly be more interesting for the LB than to have the new "Almighty Rand" act the hero through the LB... It would also explain why RJ had him have his epiphany so early, when that sort of thing usually happen later, closer to the final resolution (for now, it's exactly like having Vader's redemption in the middle of ROTJ, to fight alongside Luke to the end...)

Part of the problem is that Christian revisions (including a lot of Germanic myths to futher muddy the water) of the core Celtic Arthur have already twisted it a lot, but despite their prominence most Arthurian elements in WoT seem superficial to me. I can't help wondering if Jordan intends to make the Arthurian myth a complete mutation of the Randland story, revolving around some trivial and/or obscure element of Tarmon Gaidon at the expense of its real import, to illustrate how the passage of time and fading of memory warp history into myth. "The three must become one" is perfectly at home in Celtic tradition (though trinities work equally well for Christian Arthur tales); about the only context in which they DON'T work is a purely Manichean, so perhaps the Arthurian influence chiefly serves as a Celtic-Manichean link. The Manichean influence (about the only one to rival Arthurs in TWoT) has far more narrative impact, in fact, I think it helps filter out some Christian revisions to the original Celtic stories about Arthur. The Celtic pantheon was much more prone than Christianity to equate the power and preeminence of good and evil.

I never expected TWoT to conclude with Rand on a boat; again, most Arthur stories don't conclude there so much as terminate (a distinction integral to the Wheel of Fortune and TWoT). It may end the Arthurian parallels, but, again, I'm not sure if they were ever more than a device; in this case, it's a setup to answer the question of "what happens next...?" that the Arthurian stories usually (deliberately) leave unanswered, or else answer with an admonition to keep the dream alive though the king is dead. Removing Rand entirely might fit with making humanity master of the worlds destiny rather than just their own (which I think at the heart of Manicheanism) but I still expect it to be temporary. His role in the Last Battle, precisely what his actions would be, has always been closely concealed, so it's not surprising that would continue; it doesn't have to be anything more than Brandon not wanting to tip his (and Jordans) hand. That's not to say Rand won't be absent for much of the denouement; his absence IS clearly foreshadowed, and allowing humanity to remain indifferent spectators throughout wouldn't be consistent with Christian tradition, let alone the other more prominent WoT influences. However, just as I don't expect him to win Tarmon Gaidon single handedly, I don't think all the prophecies (and thirteen WoT books) were written so that humanity could win the Last Battle on their own, with the Dragon serving only as a rallying point before disappearing until a perfunctory curtain call at the end.
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Wow, I never realized how much King Arthur there was in WoT. - 12/05/2011 07:28:06 PM 1221 Views
There are also Ori's and the Book of Origin *NM* - 12/05/2011 07:46:50 PM 258 Views
You might be interested in this... - 13/05/2011 12:27:30 AM 827 Views
That's...outstanding. I love this stuff so much. - 13/05/2011 12:49:44 AM 522 Views
Then (I'm not sure how to be both accurate and gentle) you didn't pay attention, & do NOT rule WoT. - 14/05/2011 12:10:44 PM 542 Views
+1 *NM* - 14/05/2011 04:29:48 PM 193 Views
Apparently I've been in a consensus building mood this week. - 15/05/2011 06:08:26 PM 404 Views
Re: Then (I'm not sure how to be both accurate and gentle) you didn't pay attention - 14/05/2011 09:59:31 PM 5800 Views
Right; I've got a bad habit of ascribing that Foretelling to Alivia rather than Nicola. - 15/05/2011 06:01:53 PM 6395 Views
Rand's "death" might serve to slap some sense into the senseless, arrogant, power-mongers... - 16/05/2011 08:09:26 PM 529 Views
Here's the thing though... - 16/05/2011 11:49:36 PM 489 Views
Quite possibly, yes. - 19/05/2011 12:42:51 AM 999 Views

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