Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
If we were to use the example of the military and the ranking system, the officers are in the direct chain of command; they issue the orders and have direct authority to act as representatives of the United States, which is why they are given commissions that are signed by the President. The NCOs actually carry about the day-to-day tasks that keep the services running. But only a foolish Lieutenant would not listen to the typically more seasoned Sergeant; one, because obviously the NCO has experience that can be valuable in real life and two, because the NCO is the person actually carrying out the Lieutenant's orders.
And you must also keep in mind that even the newest Lieutenant outranks the Sergeant Major of the NCO Corps in terms of the hierarchy of military forces precisely because the commission they received is a point of demarcation in the ranking system.
Though Warders may disagree with their Aes Sedai, this is very rarely done in public for the practical reason that to the public eye, the Warder is the right hand of the Sister. Moiraine and Lan presented a united front to the world precisely because ultimately, she wasn't a fool, and he backed up her decisions.
A Warders' advice may be welcomed in private, but in public, this is tantamount to questioning the judgment of a superior in their ranking system and it undermines credibility. to go back to the military example, a new Lt. often makes mistakes, but if they have what is considered a good NCO, the NCO will accommodate the mistake in such a way that the order is carried out in the way it was intended to.
In terms of the White Tower as an organization, Warders are never truly part of it in the way that a Novice, Accepted or Sister is because these women form the body of the White Tower while Warders feel a calling to serve them. This is, to put it bluntly, an unequal relationship and it seems it only approaches a partnership in terms of private interaction and intimate knowledge of the other person.
But it is a similar issue to that encountered by Siuan & Leane after their stilling and then Healing. People OUTSIDE the system, even if they are kept in the dark in certain areas regarding the Power and secrets reserved for initiates, are generally treated in a more equal fashion, or at least dealt with as a adults, if lower ranking ones. An Aes Sedai might deal with an outsider as a CEO deals with a janitor on the factory floor, but there is still a certain recognition of individual adult status on some level. For people with a place in the Tower's hierarchy, if you are under them, you ARE under them, no two ways about it. Where an Aes Sedai must ask outsiders, and even if the outsider will obey or regret it 99 times out of 100, she still asks, whereas in that same situation with an Accepted, she has but to command and the Accepted obeys. A Warders' advice may be welcomed in private, but in public, this is tantamount to questioning the judgment of a superior in their ranking system and it undermines credibility. to go back to the military example, a new Lt. often makes mistakes, but if they have what is considered a good NCO, the NCO will accommodate the mistake in such a way that the order is carried out in the way it was intended to.
In terms of the White Tower as an organization, Warders are never truly part of it in the way that a Novice, Accepted or Sister is because these women form the body of the White Tower while Warders feel a calling to serve them. This is, to put it bluntly, an unequal relationship and it seems it only approaches a partnership in terms of private interaction and intimate knowledge of the other person.
Being part of the Tower does not give you any sort of insider credibility or equality with Aes Sedai at all, unless you are part of the Tower that is allowed to wear the shawl. All being a part of the system does is slot you firmly into your assigned place. Outsiders escape that. While they might be closed off from the highest levels of Aes Sedai respect or equal treatment, so are most sisters, who are forced to defer to one another according to the hierarchy. Yet, Nynaeve has no authority over Daigian's Warder and would face extreme disapproval, if not penance for any such presumption. I see your point in that Warders are not like NCOs because NCOs & COs are members of the same group and hierarchy. However, in the case of the White Tower (note that the US Military, which RJ understood from the inside, was an organization created by males, for males, while the White Tower is one created by females, for females, which may account for certain aspects being nearly similar and absolutely opposite at the same time - Rand notes the same thing about saidar & saidin), being outside the Tower, while limiting in some aspects, is liberating in others. Because they are not truly part of the Tower (and thus their facilities on Tower grounds would be roughly equivalent to a company day care center on the premises of the corporate HQ and not appearing at all on the org chart), each Warder's relationship is a PERSONAL compact between his Aes Sedai. The terms of their relationship are akin to a marriage in that they are what the parties involved agree upon between themselves. While a Sergeant First Class or Sgt Major HAS to obey a 2nd Lieutenant, for the good of the organization, the Lieutenant's wife, or civilian tennis partner or civilian plumber is in no way obligated to the same sort of subordination. Where Egwene might feel obligated to put down Bode Cauthon for the good of the organization they both serve, Gawyn is not a part of that, his relationship or dealings with Egwene have nothing to do with the organization, the organization is explicitly prohibited from taking notice of their relationship, and he has about as much of an obligation to obey Egwene as she did to obey and show respect to Rand al'Thor. And a stronger case could be made for the latter, since for most of their time together in WoT, Rand is the ruler of the Wise Ones, to whom Egwene is sworn obedience. While she might not be directly sworn to him, her relationship with him would be roughly akin to that of a Warder to the Amyrlin Seat - only Egwene is not the Amyrlin in this equation. Let us also recall that he was the liege lord of Moiraine, who was also Egwene's superior in the Tower. Even setting aside the issue of the Dragon Reborn, of whom Davram Bashere says "the world must follow you or fail", Rand is the superior of Egwene's superiors in more ways than one. You think she would recall this, as well as his generally benign and helpful treatment of her in that situation, when she is dealing with subordinates herself. Even if we stipulate why she cannot permit Bode Cauthon the same leeway Rand afforded her, that rule does not apply to Gawyn who is in no way required to be her subordinate. Egwene herself guesses that his own sister has bonded Rand, yet there is plainly no subordination or deference there (just, you know, positive attitudes towards one another, and actual offspring, which is the point of marriage/sexual commitment in the first place).
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course)
28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM
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There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM*
28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM
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Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying.
28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM
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What is to discuss here? You hate Egwene and will spin anything to put her in a negative light
28/04/2011 12:59:58 PM
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But he's so good at it. all the pieces are in there and close to the right place... like a picasso.
03/05/2011 12:51:54 AM
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I'd say there's no need to take it so seriously when there's so few posts lately. You should see
28/04/2011 05:59:19 PM
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while i agree with you on most of this
28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM
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hmpf, i post a good point and nothing
28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM
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you could say the same about a lot of the relationships in this series
28/04/2011 04:59:19 PM
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I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
28/04/2011 08:15:52 PM
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Re: I agree there are plenty of underdeveloped and somewhat one-sided relationships in the series
29/04/2011 06:55:14 PM
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In regards to the letters...
28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM
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But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject
28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM
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Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder.
28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM
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The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners.
28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM
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No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants.
28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM
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Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM
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Here's the thing though...
28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM
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No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it.
29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM
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But...
29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM
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That's not really clear
29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM
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Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM
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Re: Actually, it is...
30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM
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Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered?
02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM
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Re: Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical
28/04/2011 11:36:24 PM
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My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not.
28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
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Regarding your reference to another Emond's Fielder: What are you talking about?
28/04/2011 09:06:13 PM
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both together, couldn't separate them in my mind - perrin's evasiveness or nyn's trickiness *NM*
28/04/2011 10:16:57 PM
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It isn't the worst romance in WoT
28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM
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Galad is a great option for a political marriage
28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM
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Yes, but...
28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM
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but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything
28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM
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Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM
28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM
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Except they're both really hot.
28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM
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I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant.
04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM
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Siuan...
04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM
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Re: Siuan screwed up big time.
07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM
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Good points all round (do you switch brains when getting into real world politics? ) & re: the Talk
12/05/2011 02:04:06 PM
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Thanks, (and no, you just become less and less astute as we move farther from fiction. )
15/05/2011 11:46:41 PM
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