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Not at all Sidious Send a noteboard - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM
One could argue that the point has repeatedly been made that Demandred takes no joy from military strategy, that he is in fact a reluctant general, and that military strategy is merely a necessary sideshow for him in his primary quest of destroying Lews Therin. This has been made very clear. It was made yet again in the Prologue to TGS.


That point has never been made. Demandred describes himself as a general at the Cleansing! Graendal merely remarks that he seems get no joy from battle despite being a great general. It's no shock - everything he does is to either thwart Lews Therin or prove that he is better, and considering he has never achieved that even once, he's remained unfulfilled. That is why Graendal thinks he holds on to foolish grudges - he's reaching for the sun.

The confrontation between Lews Therin and Demandred has been built up from both sides (by both Demandred and Lews Therin himself), throughout the series. You don't think that it would be quite an anti-climax if nothing comes of it? Certainly, RJ could have gotten a lot more mileage out of Demandred's character than he has up to now. The only reason for keeping him in the background would be for the brief bits of foreshadowing to culminate in this epic confrontation at the end.


It hasn't been built up by Lews Therin. If you are referring to Lews Therin's offhand remark that he would like to kill Demandred AND Sammael, then that would be the limit of the 'climactic build up'. Demandred has never been one of Lews Therin's priorities - he's mentioned Demandred as often as he's mentioned killing Sammael, or making Semirhage suffer, or referring to the justice in Lanfear dying.

Besides, Demandred is not a match for Rand, which is a fact you continuously ignore. Demandred was always second to Lews Therin. Why would the author torture us with the most predictible fight in the series? Demandred isn't going to offer a better fight than Sammael or Rahvin did. I don't see how you can think the series will end in that way when his own ally thinks that Demandred will never face Rand without a sa'angreal. To suggest further that Demandred will actually beat Rand and kill him goes even one step further.

One could equally argue that the theme of the Shadow being brought low by its very nature - by the infighting and betrayal within its own ranks - would be equally well demonstrated by Demandred thwarting Moridin on the cusp of victory by killing Rand instead of letting him be turned.


Well that's a theory you're entitled to grasp to, but I can't see Demandred killing Moridin when he couldn't manage it in the War of Power, and Rand has done it several times. Graendal also wants to make Moridin into a slave, and Aran'gar wants to kill Moridin - it doesn't mean that any of this is true foreshadowing.

It is pretty clear now that Moridin's only hope is for Rand to be turned to the Shadow rather than being killed. His decision to bring Graendal into his fold is driven precisely by this need. He needs her to use her specialist skills to start preparing him psychologically for covnersion to the Shadow. Rand being killed would be the exact opposite of what he needs to happen - and yet that is exactly what is going to happen. Rand WILL die -at least this incarnation of him will. That much has been heavily foreshadowed. Whether his soul lives on in another body is yet to be revealed. But he will die, somehow. And the above is a likely way for it to happen, in my view.


There are many Forsaken who want a piece of Rand - Cyndane most of all, but they might all be cut short.

Moridin directly said he wanted to fight Rand in the Final Battle, and there's no evidence that he'll renege on this deal. He made it clear as early as TDR that conversion was no longer part of the Shadow's plot with al'Thor.

Moridin isn't going to fight him. Because killing him will kill Moridin as well. I agree that no one is going to beat Rand in a face to face confrontation. But the end won't be a face to face, one on one battle to the death. It will be a complex, multi-faceted engagement, with plenty of opportunity for treacherous balefiring from the sides, and no doubt with more than one unexpected twist thrown in for good measure.


Treacherous balefiring which could claim Demandred as much as anyone, and which could Demandred is unwilling to use. It strongly hints at the theme that pride comes before the fall, and that Demandred will be taken out by someone rather average - much like Lanfear was pushed through the door by Moiraine, or how she balefired Be'lal, or how Nynaeve burned Rahvin. There is no evidence that Demandred will get any greater death than these mentioned above. The whole point of Demandred is for us to see that he should have stayed on the Light and remained Lews Therin's friend and ally. The author isn't going to grant glory to a traitor and potential Dragon who sold his soul - he's going to have him lose everything. It's happened to most of the Forsaken, it will happen to Demandred.

The whole secret behind Demandred is his hidden land, and for us to see his army and his strategic skills. RJ already popped the balloon surrounding his channeling prowess at the Cleansing when he himself said he wasn't made for this lowly work, and when Flinn and friends chased him away. Demandred has little value as an individual - but great value as a strategist, which is why he's obviously been left for the Final Battle. That's why I think Mat will compete against him - he's got a thousand generals knowledge in his brain, and it'll be good to see if he can match Demandred.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 20/09/2009 at 03:36:53 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3270 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 215 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 668 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 266 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 213 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 570 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 579 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 443 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 535 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 567 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 307 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 598 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 649 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 623 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 638 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 317 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 254 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 521 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 590 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 642 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 654 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 593 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 620 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 526 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 574 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 597 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 511 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 532 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 481 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 602 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 283 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 561 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 474 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 520 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 508 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 651 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 493 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 697 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 674 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 546 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 656 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 358 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 562 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 621 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 492 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 622 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 260 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 649 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 677 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 694 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 757 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 660 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 680 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 601 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 532 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 232 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 670 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 600 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 510 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 617 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 520 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 642 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 582 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 598 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 489 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 469 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 550 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 513 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 508 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 533 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 646 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 442 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 542 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 456 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 532 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 529 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 636 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 547 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 486 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 441 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 482 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 554 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 442 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 635 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 592 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 583 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 605 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 613 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 677 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 503 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 603 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 515 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 431 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 520 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 530 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 561 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 431 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 255 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 496 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 575 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 651 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 488 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 650 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1462 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 461 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 417 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 536 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 485 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 419 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 625 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 549 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 599 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 485 Views

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