Active Users:1051 Time:14/11/2024 06:00:22 AM
Re: Huh Shannow Send a noteboard - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM
"Nope, she has better things to do."

Really? Like playing sexual games with Compelled pretty boys? Rather than accurately estimating the strengths and weakenesses of her key competitors? That proves my point that she is not the most formidable of opponents.

"That is a ridiculous statement to make. According to you, the only way that Semirhage could ever be as dangerous as Demandred would be if Graendal was biased towards women. How about the most logical argument that she considers either of them to be equally dangerous. I recall Asmodean soiling himself thinking about Semirhage, and not Demandred... is he is a sexist too?"

I guess the opposite is then true. Aginor is intimidated by Demandred but feels quite comofortable addressing Graendal in a patronizing way. Arangar thinks Demandred is too dangerous to try and manipulate, but feels quite comfortable doing so to Graendal. I guess both of them base their feelings of superiority on gender bias, while Graendal is the only one with a true grasp of the situation?

Oh, and let us not forget that Mesaana considered herself and Semirhage to be dead even. Even if they are not, they are clearly not GREATLY different in terms of the One Power. And yet Graendal seems to consider the gulf between Semirhage and Mesaana to be VAST. Is this again a case of Graendal being the only one who grasps the true state of affairs?

"It's so clear that Graendal, one of the greatest minds of the AOL couldn't figure out if Semirhage or Demandred led the trio."

She also could not figure out that Sammael had totally duped her in CoS. Sammael, the one without any finesse, the "bull in the china shop", manipulated Graendal completely and utterly in CoS, and got her to play along with his plans to the letter. Only Moridin's interference led to Sammael's failure, and Graendal's hasty escape from the situation.

For a great psychiatrist she didn't see through the clumsy Sammael's ruse very well. In fact, he fooled her completely.


"It may well be a secret which has been poorly kept. It's possible that Graendal has asked Mesaana or Semirhage about it and they deny it, making it the worst kept secret in the Shadow."

"Possible?" ANYTHIHNG is "POSSIBLE".

What is more PROBABLE, is that it is open knowledge, only Graendal is so wrapped up in her pleasure games that she doesn't realise it. Resultingly, she considers it a huge achievement to know about their alliance, when none of the others are surprised by it.

"She's one of the greatest Forsaken who fought in the War of Power, according to the author himself. She's thought about enslaving Rand too, and even Sammael held saidin when he was around her. You underestimate her, I'm afraid."

Or EVERYONE, myself included, has been overestimating her intelligence since FoH. It is pretty clear that Moridin sees Demandred as the real threat amongst the remaining Chosen, and is using the carrot of a secondary position of authority to get Graendal to play along with him. He has Cyndane and Moghedien on a leash, Shaidar Haran has brought down Mesaana, and now Semirhage has been captured. Now all he needs to do is bring the Graendal/Arangar alliance under his command and his greatest competitor - Demandred - is completely isolated.

He is clearly playing Graendal, just like Sammael played her, and once again she is going along meekly. Only this time, the end result will most likely be fatal to her.

My estimation of Graendal has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after reading this chapter.


"Like when Graendal calls him a fool three times, or when Lanfear mocks him about him thinking he's the Great Lord's heir, or when Sammael says that if he doesn't stop meddling in his affairs he'll pay."

Really now, for every vague reference you have there, I have a much more direct reference of a Forsaken quote showing significant acknowledgment of Demandred's stature. You know this, of course, but have no choice but to refer to these rather dubious examples.

Graendal calls him a fool to his face while wearing an angreal, Sammael blustered and threatened him in the same way he promised to kill Lanfear when he saw her again. In Demandred's absence.
And lastly, Lanfear was hardly mocking him when she truthfully made the statement that Demandred considers himself better than the other Forsaken. Once again, in his absence.

"It's funny how Lews Therin himself, the greatest of all channelers, thinks that Semirhage's reputation as a torturer looms so greatly above her head that it's easy to forget how dangerous she is as a channeler. Despite separate reviews of Semirhage's lethal nature by Lews Therin, Asmodean, Mesaana and now Graendal, it seems that 'female bias' really can settle this. It's also amazing that Moridin is furious that Semirhage would try to kill Rand. Why would he care if she's so far below a 'Dragon' and unable to do so? Clearly Semirhage is up to the task of destroying even Rand in a duel, and Moridin says she'll pay for it."

It is pretty clear that most of the Forsaken have still not accepted that Rand has the full ability of an Age of Legends trained channeler. And I can refer to numerous quotes in that regard, throughout the series, but you know all of them, of course.

"Even Demandred agrees that Semirhage could kill Rand. So Semirhage could kill Rand, but would be easy meat for Demandred? I think not."

Refer above.

And despite Demandred's arrogance, he has never made idle boasts before. If anything, the contrary has been true. He has refrained from making any kind of threats the less controlled Sammael was prone to make.


"He claimed in WH that Lews Therin wasn't nearly as intelligent as he was. An idle boast if ever there was one."

He thought that to himself. His public statements have been much more reserved. He is not the Sammael type who makes blustery public statements.

Graendal is dumber than we thought up to now.


"No"

Yes. I think a picture is emerging of Graendal as being less of an evil genius and more of a self absorbed pleasure seeker with fading psychological skills.

Graendal is going to die in this book.


"Probably."

Demandred's stature was enhanced yet again. He has consistently been built up as a Forsaken of note, and will no doubt make a dramatic entry towards the very end of the series, playing a key role in the final outcome.


"He's the huge surprise that just never arrives."

Ah, but the longer it is delayed, the better the climax.





Reply to message
TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3265 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 214 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 663 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 212 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 564 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 573 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 438 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 531 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 562 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 306 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 592 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 642 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 619 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 631 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 316 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 253 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 514 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 585 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 637 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 651 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 587 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 614 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 522 Views
But there's no plausible deniability - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 567 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 592 Views
Why? - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 504 Views
simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 525 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 476 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 598 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 282 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 555 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 469 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 516 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 504 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 646 Views
Fades are smart enough though - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 488 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 692 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 668 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 540 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 651 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 555 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 616 Views
Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 485 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 616 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 644 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 672 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 690 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 752 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 656 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 674 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 597 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 526 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 231 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 665 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 594 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 505 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 612 Views
This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 514 Views
Various comments - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 636 Views
The Dying Man - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 577 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 593 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 485 Views
Symbolism - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 462 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 544 Views
That is a really stupid idea - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 507 Views
Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 505 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 527 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 638 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 436 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 536 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 452 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 525 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 523 Views
I think there are many issues here - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 631 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 544 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 480 Views
Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 435 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 478 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 549 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 437 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 629 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 586 Views
Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 577 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 602 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 605 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 671 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 496 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 596 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 508 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 429 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 514 Views
Its simply, really. - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 526 Views
Hmmm... - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 555 Views
Fair enough... - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 424 Views
Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 490 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 566 Views
Re: Well - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 647 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 481 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 645 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1455 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 458 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 413 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 531 Views
I don't really agree - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 480 Views
But these aren't criminals... - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 412 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 619 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 543 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 594 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 482 Views

Reply to Message