Active Users:1211 Time:23/11/2024 07:11:34 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
Huh Sidious Send a noteboard - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM
Based on Demandred's reaction to one comment from Moridin, Graendal suddenly changes her opinion regarding which of Demandred or Semirhage is the more dangerous to her? What the hell? It's not like she hasn't observed their respective tactics, attitudes and attributes over the course of a WORLD WAR that lasted for 10 years!


This is completely plausible. Demandred only joined the Shadow during the War of Power half way in. Secondly, there were many Chosen during the War. It's quite likely that Graendal never had contact with many of them for the duration of the conflict. Even now, Graendal rarely sees her peers. Now that there are only eight Forsaken left, she has to seriously evaluate each one of them so that she can kill them.

I would think that she would have made up her mind about their comparative strengths by now.


Nope, she has better things to do.

What is clear to me now is that the female Forsaken are even more gender-biased than the males when it comes to assessing the strengths of fellow Chosen. Everyone was criticising Rahvin for underestimating Lanfear in FoH, but Graendal seems to naturally consider the female Semirhage to be a foe as dangerous as Demandred. This despite her acknowledging that Demandred might have been the Dragon HIMSELF had he stayed with the Light!


That is a ridiculous statement to make. According to you, the only way that Semirhage could ever be as dangerous as Demandred would be if Graendal was biased towards women. How about the most logical argument that she considers either of them to be equally dangerous. I recall Asmodean soiling himself thinking about Semirhage, and not Demandred... is he is a sexist too?

That simply does not make sense. It is clear that Demandred is the leader of the trio. And it is also clear that Graendal is not half as cunning and intelligent as everyone has been making out up to now.


It's so clear that Graendal, one of the greatest minds of the AOL couldn't figure out if Semirhage or Demandred led the trio.

For one, it has NEVER before been suggested that Demandred sought to keep his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage secret from the other Forsaken. For pete's sake, they've openly huddled together AT FORSAKEN MEETINGS in previous books. Arangar knew about their alliance in Book 11, yet she did not consider it to be any kind of achievement to have this insight. It is open knowledge. Yet Graendal thinks herself smart for "cracking that secret." I mean, come on.


It may well be a secret which has been poorly kept. It's possible that Graendal has asked Mesaana or Semirhage about it and they deny it, making it the worst kept secret in the Shadow.

And the way Graendal thinks about Moridin - making him her pet etc. She clearly has immense delusions of grandeur.


She's one of the greatest Forsaken who fought in the War of Power, according to the author himself. She's thought about enslaving Rand too, and even Sammael held saidin when he was around her. You underestimate her, I'm afraid.

My estimation of Graendal has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after reading this chapter.


You've never really disguised your contempt for the female Forsaken, so I find this difficult to believe.

What has come across yet again, however, is just how dangerous Demandred is. In EVERY appearance thus far, throughout the series, he has only been regarded with respect or awe by other Forsaken. We have had references to his ability and menace from almost all the Forsaken by now.


Like when Graendal calls him a fool three times, or when Lanfear mocks him about him thinking he's the Great Lord's heir, or when Sammael says that if he doesn't stop meddling in his affairs he'll pay.

Graendal refers to the immense danger he presents, and then her female bias seems to elevate Semirhage to a position equal to that of a potential Dragon. Only for an instant, though, until Sanderson seems to bring reality home to us, however dubious the suggestion that Graendal had not yet analysed the comparative strengths of these two Forsaken a few thousand years ago already.


It's funny how Lews Therin himself, the greatest of all channelers, thinks that Semirhage's reputation as a torturer looms so greatly above her head that it's easy to forget how dangerous she is as a channeler. Despite separate reviews of Semirhage's lethal nature by Lews Therin, Asmodean, Mesaana and now Graendal, it seems that 'female bias' really can settle this. It's also amazing that Moridin is furious that Semirhage would try to kill Rand. Why would he care if she's so far below a 'Dragon' and unable to do so? Clearly Semirhage is up to the task of destroying even Rand in a duel, and Moridin says she'll pay for it.

I particularly enjoyed the casual way Demandred stated that he would have tracked Semirhage down and claimed her life in retribution had she killed Rand. None of the other Forsaken reacted with ridicule at his statement. Certainly Mesaana did not, and she knows Semirhage's strength - having compared it to her own before.


Even Demandred agrees that Semirhage could kill Rand. So Semirhage could kill Rand, but would be easy meat for Demandred? I think not.

And despite Demandred's arrogance, he has never made idle boasts before. If anything, the contrary has been true. He has refrained from making any kind of threats the less controlled Sammael was prone to make.


He claimed in WH that Lews Therin wasn't nearly as intelligent as he was. An idle boast if ever there was one.

Graendal is dumber than we thought up to now.

No

Graendal is going to die in this book.

Probably.

Demandred's stature was enhanced yet again. He has consistently been built up as a Forsaken of note, and will no doubt make a dramatic entry towards the very end of the series, playing a key role in the final outcome.

He's the huge surprise that just never arrives.

Moridin is starting to put personal issues above the goals of the Dark One. Or rather, his insanity is making him even more stupid than before. The idea of sacrificing an asset of Semirhage's ability just because she hurt his phantom hand a little is petty and short sighted in the extreme.

Probably because if Rand dies, he does too. The Forsaken are obsessed with survival, it makes sense.



Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Reply to message
TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* Sidious - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3270 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* Blaine - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 215 Views
mobipocket.com NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 668 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* Blaine - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 266 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* NaClH2O - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 213 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue ajfurst - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 569 Views
As short as the prologue was Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 579 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 443 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? RandAllThor - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 535 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 567 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 307 Views
The interview BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 598 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi Lanfear - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 649 Views
I'm a little surprised nobody is discussing this. I thought this would get more attention. *NM* Lanfear - 20/09/2009 09:17:57 PM 319 Views
Well, Lanfear... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 622 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? Ryan - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 638 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 317 Views
You blame her? *NM* Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 254 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 521 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 590 Views
Trollocs! NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 642 Views
Why not a gray man then? Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 654 Views
I'm going to guess it was Demandred Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:12:19 PM 593 Views
What Cache is in Ebou Dar? NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:05:05 AM 620 Views
Because they wanted to destroy as much of the force as possible NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 12:07:57 AM 526 Views
But there's no plausible deniability Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 12:50:42 AM 574 Views
But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done NaClH2O - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 597 Views
Why? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 03:25:34 AM 511 Views
simple answer:scouts redhand - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 532 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 480 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? NaClH2O - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 602 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* MikeyMikeyMikey - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 283 Views
Great idea. Seriana Sedai - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 560 Views
Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back Ryan - 18/09/2009 08:15:47 PM 540 Views
Re: Its about time for Perrin to reunite with Rand he's got Faile back PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:41:12 PM 552 Views
No one. Terez - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 474 Views
A possibility, but... NaClH2O - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 520 Views
Well, yeah... Terez - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 508 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs Lanfear - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 651 Views
Fades are smart enough though Rurouni_Kenshin - 18/09/2009 07:54:02 PM 493 Views
Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts Lanfear - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 697 Views
Or PatAtt - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 674 Views
My first thought was Great Lord of Chaos - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 546 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal BlackAdder - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 656 Views
*NM* AliasRY - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 358 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' Sidious - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 562 Views
Yes, because Cannoli has long valued the opinions of the Forsaken... Cannoli - 20/09/2009 06:10:58 AM 621 Views
Lol *NM* Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 492 Views
Forsaken Chapter Shannow - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 622 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 260 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter AgentOrange - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 649 Views
Wrong... Shannow - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 677 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 694 Views
Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 757 Views
Re: Huh Shannow - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 660 Views
Re: Huh Sidious - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 680 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 601 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter BlackAdder - 19/09/2009 05:40:14 PM 532 Views
No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* Shannow - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 232 Views
Remove your blinders man... fionwe1987 - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 670 Views
After third reread StinkerSkunk - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 600 Views
Ituralde's plan ajfurst - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 510 Views
Huh....hadn't thought about that AliasRY - 19/09/2009 03:07:06 PM 617 Views
This makes perfect sense The Dude - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 520 Views
Various comments Etzel - 19/09/2009 05:38:21 PM 642 Views
The Dying Man Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 06:48:09 PM 582 Views
Yeah, I thought it was Dobraine as well Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:30:13 PM 598 Views
Dobraine seems unlikely... Etzel - 20/09/2009 11:30:45 AM 489 Views
Symbolism Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 04:10:53 PM 469 Views
After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 549 Views
That is a really stupid idea Guava - 20/09/2009 01:20:09 AM 513 Views
Yeah Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 508 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 533 Views
This isn't evidence. Yvves - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 646 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table Matrimony Cauthon - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 442 Views
Personally, I disagree. Digital_Eon - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 542 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 456 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 532 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Shannow - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 529 Views
I think there are many issues here Sidious - 19/09/2009 10:51:13 PM 635 Views
The Malign Influence of the Forsaken Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 11:08:00 PM 547 Views
I have doubts about that degree of conversion Sidious - 19/09/2009 11:17:44 PM 486 Views
Its a stretch, but... Heiko - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 441 Views
I thought about that Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 482 Views
Levee en Masse Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 554 Views
Re: Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? Curie - 20/09/2009 09:44:06 AM 619 Views
I think Demendred might take over though AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 442 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? Shannow - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 635 Views
I don't think that Demandred will be a key player at the end with Rand Sidious - 20/09/2009 01:00:58 PM 592 Views
Some sweeping statements there... Shannow - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 583 Views
Not at all Sidious - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 604 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... Shannow - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 613 Views
Not really Sidious - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 677 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... Shannow - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 503 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 603 Views
Possible... Shannow - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 515 Views
So that's your argument now? fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 431 Views
I think you took that the wrong way... Shannow - 20/09/2009 08:53:28 PM 520 Views
Its simply, really. Heiko - 20/09/2009 09:05:42 PM 530 Views
Hmmm... fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:10:04 PM 561 Views
Fair enough... Shannow - 20/09/2009 11:12:53 PM 431 Views
Sure. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 255 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Sidious - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 496 Views
Well Heiko - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 575 Views
Re: Well Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:40:51 PM 651 Views
Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 488 Views
Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 650 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 20/09/2009 09:59:51 PM 1462 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Shannow - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 461 Views
Re: Just a general comment... Sidious - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 417 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. fionwe1987 - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 536 Views
I don't really agree Sidious - 21/09/2009 05:02:10 AM 485 Views
But these aren't criminals... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2009 05:47:40 AM 419 Views
No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable Sidious - 21/09/2009 12:43:19 PM 625 Views
Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable fionwe1987 - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 549 Views
Doubt it... Etzel - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 599 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. AgentOrange - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 485 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes