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Forsaken Chapter Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM
I found the Forsaken chapter somewhat disappointing. It was clearly the work of someone who had all the superficial information about each Forsaken, but was trying to summarize their personalities all over again as if presenting it for the first time.

Graendal was talking about Demandred and Semirhage as if thinking about them for the first time. From this chapter you wouldn't think she'd known them for four thousand years, give or take a little. Or rather, for about 300 years in realtime, give or take a few decades.

As an example:

Based on Demandred's reaction to one comment from Moridin, Graendal suddenly changes her opinion regarding which of Demandred or Semirhage is the more dangerous to her? What the hell? It's not like she hasn't observed their respective tactics, attitudes and attributes over the course of a WORLD WAR that lasted for 10 years!

I would think that she would have made up her mind about their comparative strengths by now.

What is clear to me now is that the female Forsaken are even more gender-biased than the males when it comes to assessing the strengths of fellow Chosen. Everyone was criticising Rahvin for underestimating Lanfear in FoH, but Graendal seems to naturally consider the female Semirhage to be a foe as dangerous as Demandred. This despite her acknowledging that Demandred might have been the Dragon HIMSELF had he stayed with the Light!

That simply does not make sense. It is clear that Demandred is the leader of the trio. And it is also clear that Graendal is not half as cunning and intelligent as everyone has been making out up to now.


For one, it has NEVER before been suggested that Demandred sought to keep his alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage secret from the other Forsaken. For pete's sake, they've openly huddled together AT FORSAKEN MEETINGS in previous books. Arangar knew about their alliance in Book 11, yet she did not consider it to be any kind of achievement to have this insight. It is open knowledge. Yet Graendal thinks herself smart for "cracking that secret." I mean, come on.

And the way Graendal thinks about Moridin - making him her pet etc. She clearly has immense delusions of grandeur.

My estimation of Graendal has dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after reading this chapter.

What has come across yet again, however, is just how dangerous Demandred is. In EVERY appearance thus far, throughout the series, he has only been regarded with respect or awe by other Forsaken. We have had references to his ability and menace from almost all the Forsaken by now.

Graendal refers to the immense danger he presents, and then her female bias seems to elevate Semirhage to a position equal to that of a potential Dragon. Only for an instant, though, until Sanderson seems to bring reality home to us, however dubious the suggestion that Graendal had not yet analysed the comparative strengths of these two Forsaken a few thousand years ago already.

More revealing than Graendal's opionion, however, was Arangar's comparative view of Graendal and Demandred. The common thread between Arangar and Graendal's views was their high estimates for Demandred's ability. The difference, is that Arangar considered Graendal a far less dangerous adversary to try and manipulate. If I recall, her words were something to the effect that Demandred was far too dangerous to play her games with.

I particularly enjoyed the casual way Demandred stated that he would have tracked Semirhage down and claimed her life in retribution had she killed Rand. None of the other Forsaken reacted with ridicule at his statement. Certainly Mesaana did not, and she knows Semirhage's strength - having compared it to her own before.

And despite Demandred's arrogance, he has never made idle boasts before. If anything, the contrary has been true. He has refrained from making any kind of threats the less controlled Sammael was prone to make.

My conclusions based on this chapter:

Graendal is dumber than we thought up to now.

Graendal is going to die in this book.

Demandred's stature was enhanced yet again. He has consistently been built up as a Forsaken of note, and will no doubt make a dramatic entry towards the very end of the series, playing a key role in the final outcome.

Moridin is starting to put personal issues above the goals of the Dark One. Or rather, his insanity is making him even more stupid than before. The idea of sacrificing an asset of Semirhage's ability just because she hurt his phantom hand a little is petty and short sighted in the extreme.



This message last edited by Shannow on 18/09/2009 at 10:41:00 PM
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TGS Prologue - your thoughts (part 2) *spoilers* - 16/09/2009 04:55:21 AM 3265 Views
Where can i find it at? Can someone give me a link? *NM* - 18/09/2009 02:21:10 AM 214 Views
mobipocket.com - 18/09/2009 02:53:13 AM 665 Views
Thanks, It was interesting especially the last part of the prologue *NM* - 20/09/2009 02:42:28 AM 265 Views
Yep, to be truthful I really didn't see that coming. *NM* - 20/09/2009 03:03:12 AM 212 Views
A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 01:30:24 PM 565 Views
As short as the prologue was - 18/09/2009 04:27:54 PM 573 Views
Re: A pointless survey - take your guess at who wrote what of the Prologue - 18/09/2009 07:08:43 PM 439 Views
How do you think this prologue compares to the previous ones? - 18/09/2009 01:52:59 PM 531 Views
Did only the audiobook ppl get the 2:30 of Harriet at the end? - 18/09/2009 03:07:27 PM 563 Views
nope and now I hate you *NM* - 18/09/2009 04:59:48 PM 306 Views
The interview - 18/09/2009 09:40:23 PM 592 Views
The prologue gives us strong evidence that Graendal is weaker than Demi or Semi - 18/09/2009 03:55:58 PM 642 Views
Well, Lanfear... - 20/09/2009 11:33:22 PM 619 Views
Is it me or do the Forsaken seem more viscious? - 18/09/2009 04:17:22 PM 632 Views
yep, leaner and meaner...except for mesaana-she's still twitchy after shadar haran *NM* - 18/09/2009 05:09:29 PM 316 Views
You blame her? *NM* - 18/09/2009 08:05:46 PM 253 Views
Not at all, I'd be more than "twitchy" if that happened to me - 19/09/2009 12:00:57 AM 516 Views
I get the feeling they want to jump ship - 19/09/2009 02:13:51 PM 587 Views
Trollocs! - 18/09/2009 05:35:12 PM 637 Views
Why not a gray man then? - 18/09/2009 07:52:55 PM 652 Views
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But even several grey men or slayer aren't going to get the deed done - 19/09/2009 02:28:36 AM 592 Views
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simple answer:scouts - 19/09/2009 04:47:04 AM 526 Views
What day is it? Are the Suldam & Damane in the area? - 19/09/2009 05:32:54 PM 477 Views
Who is Graendal going to wack? - 18/09/2009 06:00:12 PM 598 Views
I think it could be Tam. *NM* - 18/09/2009 06:05:12 PM 282 Views
Great idea. - 18/09/2009 07:12:40 PM 556 Views
No one. - 23/09/2009 02:05:06 AM 469 Views
A possibility, but... - 23/09/2009 11:53:07 AM 518 Views
Well, yeah... - 23/09/2009 04:02:47 PM 505 Views
Isn't it obvious...Semirhage sent the Trollocs - 18/09/2009 06:38:15 PM 646 Views
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Mesaana's statement gives us a big clue about Demandred's and Moridin's whereabouts - 18/09/2009 09:11:49 PM 693 Views
Or - 18/09/2009 10:38:52 PM 668 Views
My first thought was - 19/09/2009 02:20:39 AM 540 Views
My favorite quote: "Who will win? The child or the fool?" - Graendal - 18/09/2009 09:48:55 PM 651 Views
*NM* - 19/09/2009 04:20:29 AM 357 Views
but she didn't say 'the fool or the fool' - 19/09/2009 02:07:20 PM 556 Views
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Lol *NM* - 20/09/2009 08:26:53 AM 485 Views
Forsaken Chapter - 18/09/2009 10:30:10 PM 617 Views
I agree that Graendal will die in this book.... her and A'rangar *NM* - 19/09/2009 08:14:07 AM 259 Views
Re: Forsaken Chapter - 19/09/2009 09:53:31 AM 645 Views
Wrong... - 19/09/2009 01:41:25 PM 672 Views
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. - 19/09/2009 09:22:38 PM 692 Views
Huh - 19/09/2009 01:46:21 PM 752 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 02:21:43 PM 656 Views
Re: Huh - 19/09/2009 04:32:50 PM 675 Views
Fair enough... - 19/09/2009 05:08:33 PM 598 Views
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No, see my response to Agent Orange above. *NM* - 19/09/2009 06:07:14 PM 231 Views
Remove your blinders man... - 19/09/2009 07:16:03 PM 665 Views
After third reread - 18/09/2009 10:58:12 PM 595 Views
Ituralde's plan - 19/09/2009 02:04:58 PM 507 Views
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This makes perfect sense - 22/09/2009 07:35:49 PM 515 Views
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After a reread I think I know who sent the Trollocs - 19/09/2009 08:28:08 PM 545 Views
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Yeah - 20/09/2009 08:24:18 AM 505 Views
Another reason why Moridin is not Taim - 19/09/2009 08:41:03 PM 527 Views
This isn't evidence. - 19/09/2009 08:51:54 PM 639 Views
It isn't evidence, but it is another perspective to add to the table - 19/09/2009 09:11:15 PM 437 Views
Personally, I disagree. - 20/09/2009 03:22:24 AM 538 Views
Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 10:24:45 PM 452 Views
Re: Do you think Moridin is struggling like Rand is? - 19/09/2009 11:29:36 PM 526 Views
Why is Moridin and not Demandred marshalling the Dark Forces in the Blight? - 19/09/2009 10:35:06 PM 523 Views
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Its a stretch, but... - 19/09/2009 11:34:28 PM 436 Views
I thought about that - 20/09/2009 08:26:02 AM 478 Views
Levee en Masse - 19/09/2009 10:51:54 PM 550 Views
I think Demendred might take over though - 20/09/2009 05:10:08 PM 437 Views
Did Demandred make the connection between Moridin's phantom hand-pain and Semirhage's firebolt? - 20/09/2009 12:11:32 PM 629 Views
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Some sweeping statements there... - 20/09/2009 01:21:46 PM 578 Views
Not at all - 20/09/2009 03:34:59 PM 602 Views
A lot of twisting my words there, and direct contradictions of your own points... - 20/09/2009 04:19:57 PM 605 Views
Not really - 20/09/2009 05:12:42 PM 672 Views
I couldn't have summarized it better myself... - 20/09/2009 05:25:56 PM 497 Views
But... - 20/09/2009 06:01:33 PM 596 Views
Possible... - 20/09/2009 06:08:21 PM 509 Views
So that's your argument now? - 20/09/2009 07:35:52 PM 429 Views
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Sure. *NM* - 20/09/2009 11:25:50 PM 254 Views
Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 08:38:37 PM 490 Views
Well - 20/09/2009 08:56:43 PM 567 Views
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Re: Wow, then I think you're in for a surprise - 20/09/2009 09:07:48 PM 482 Views
Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 09:13:51 PM 646 Views
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Re: Just a general comment... - 20/09/2009 10:19:14 PM 459 Views
Re: Just a general comment... - 21/09/2009 04:58:38 AM 413 Views
I reject the cult of the "cool" villain. - 20/09/2009 11:24:40 PM 531 Views
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Re: No, just the most heinous criminals imaginable - 22/09/2009 10:49:58 PM 543 Views
Doubt it... - 20/09/2009 02:10:37 PM 595 Views
I tend to agree with you, this time. - 20/09/2009 05:05:35 PM 482 Views

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