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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.


You haven't read my post attentively then, as I've mentionned how Hugo is a great popular writer (ie: he wrote great stories) and is also widely recognized as a great writer (his prose, his works have recognized artistic value).

I make the distinction (and it's a traditional disctinction, by the way - not my own) between great popular writers and great writers because if you try to judge their works with the same criterias, most of the great popular writers will end up at the bottom of the list because of the lack of artistic/aesthethic value of their writing, unless you narrow your analysis to specific craft aspects, like storytelling, characters etc. - which is a lot about purely subjective notions, such as how fun the story is, or how much you like the characters.

You can compare the craftsmanship of J.K. Rowling and Jane Austen in storytelling, but if you try to compare their Art of writing, this is not even close to a contest (which is why I find stupid to look at most popular work with the "great writing" critical grid. As far as I know, Rowling has no artistic intent with her prose - it's pointless to look at her work from this angle (as one would for a "great writer" or an author with artistic ambitions, only to arrive at the foregone conclusion that her prose has little artistic value and use that to bash her gratuitously.


Are great popular writers like Rowling, Doyle, Dumas etc. as valuable and significant culturally as the great writers is not a debate I even got into and that I leave to others like you who try to put all writing in the same bag as I don't personally care - I enjoy reading both good popular literature - great stories - and the great writers, sometimes for the same reasons (a lot of great writers were also great storytellers...), more often for fairly different reasons and I can admire craftsmanship and art in literature both (I just can see the difference between the two). I merely touched on the artistic differences that exist between popular literature and great literature. I also don't equate the vague category of "the classics" with great literature. Tons of books that became classics are recognized as such for their ideas rather than their form.
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? newyorkersedai - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3293 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. darius_sedai - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1678 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1299 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1184 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1271 Views
Oh, it really depends. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 1010 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 810 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. RabidWombat - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1638 Views
Thank you. Nargs - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1385 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM* Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM 900 Views
Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. Gerbeaud - 22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM 1113 Views
Well Said! Evil_Monkey - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1298 Views
That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen. The Count - 23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM 1237 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1703 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1368 Views
Not particularly. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1492 Views
Agreed. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1247 Views
Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM 1327 Views
That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler. Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM 1239 Views
Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM 1287 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... Velveti - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1229 Views
Amen *NM* Nargs - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 798 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? DomA - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 2090 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1279 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol Onarishma - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1337 Views
I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM 1597 Views
That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks newyorkersedai - 23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM 1348 Views
Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM 1314 Views
adam roberts reviews uglycat - 23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM 1306 Views
And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM 759 Views
Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM 1157 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Tom - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1469 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Lo'oris - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1411 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* Ghavrel - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 715 Views
There are nine, actually... Lo'oris - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1476 Views
Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM* Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM 778 Views
Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM* Tom - 23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM 758 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. Stephen - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1162 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1290 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Stephen - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1253 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 1089 Views
So wait, style is good? Stephen - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1483 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1133 Views
I'm not trolling Stephen - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1157 Views
That depends... DomA - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1382 Views
I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria. Tom - 23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM 1245 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion RabidWombat - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1242 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion DomA - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1233 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1367 Views
Not for quality of writing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1191 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* HyogaRott - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 769 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1301 Views
If you don't mind me asking... Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 1061 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... DomA - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1187 Views
I still don't get it. Fanatic-Templar - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 1086 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1129 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 1080 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. Lo'oris - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1231 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1283 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1182 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 806 Views
... Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1141 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 980 Views
It is not a serious question. Tom - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1122 Views
How so? fionwe1987 - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1261 Views
I have every right to use that tone. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1211 Views
Is that so? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1207 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. Tom - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1222 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? Fanatic-Templar - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1273 Views
You're conflating two things. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1242 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1172 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* Nargs - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 710 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 990 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 727 Views
Glad to hear that. Tom - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 1080 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 782 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1144 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Tom - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1305 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. HyogaRott - 25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM 1713 Views
I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you. Tom - 25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM 1070 Views
Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic" HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM 1092 Views
Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. Lo'oris - 26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM 1121 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 634 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* Nargs - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 661 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* HyogaRott - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 763 Views
Re: ... Lo'oris - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1183 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. newyorkersedai - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1197 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. Tom - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1155 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1294 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1121 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? GarethBryne - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1314 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. Ghavrel - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 1080 Views
Ok... Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1126 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. Ghavrel - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1195 Views
*NM* Tom - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 678 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. Nargs - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1065 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? VTHokie - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1181 Views
Among living writers? Tom - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1246 Views
No Rushdie? fionwe1987 - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1139 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. Tom - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 1083 Views
My list would be similar... DomA - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1352 Views
That was a very good list. Tom - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1198 Views
Re: That was a very good list. DomA - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1249 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. Tom - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 1031 Views
Oh, and another question Tom - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 1008 Views
Re: Oh, and another question DomA - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1189 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... Tom - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 1071 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... DomA - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1220 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1295 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Tom - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1205 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? Iain83 - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1306 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1321 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' Iain83 - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1228 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: Nargs - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1462 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' DomA - 03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM 1176 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* Marshall - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 802 Views
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