Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
Iain83 Send a noteboard - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
I can see what you're getting at, but it's a distinction that I don't accept. Although I agree there are many popular books that all one asks from is enjoyment (e.g. Dan Brown, JK Rowling, John Buchan, LM Montgomery), I don't agree that being popular renders a book/author ineligble for the classification of 'great' either.
Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.
That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!
As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.
As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).
Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
Essentially, I think I'm just more willing to award the title of 'great' to an author who excels in matters of ideas, characterisation, imagery or story-telling (at a level far beyond what's necessary to be enjoyable). Great means you excel in your field, whatever that may be. So, someone who is 'one of the best writers of French popular literature' whose 'genius was story-telling' is someone I'd call 'great'.
That's more the exception than the norm with most of the writers I've listed, but you also have to consider my culture is not yours, and the French literary tradition is (and even more, was) quite different from the anglo-saxon one. French and English for all their similarities remain very different languages, and have different aesthetics.
Most of the writers I've listed are hardly florid and in fact some like Zola, Camus are recognized for the very opposite!
As for "poetic", this has a slightly different value in the French language (and it's not exclusive to French... Japanese, Russian, Chinese... many languages values the poetic aspect of prose a great deal more than it's done in English (except of course in poetry in its various forms), that values "efficiency" over beauty in prose. By "poetic" the French don't necessarily mean the language is close to the aesthetics of classic poetry. It's more the combination of how interesting it sounds aloud (the musicality, the rhythm), and how evocative it is.
As an aside, that's hardly the sole standards by which French culture has traditionally judged what is and isn't "great literature", especially foreign ones, for which the French just don't expect French aesthetics and are far more interested in substance, vision, perspective for foreign books (they value that a lot in French literature too, of course - it's not all or necessarily primarly about "beautiful prose". The French don't like beautiful prose without substance (but do say that writing great ideas with average prose is a shame!).
Fair enough - I'm much less familiar with books of other languages, so much of our difference in definition may well be to do with a difference in cultural definition.
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM
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I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer.
21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM
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Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured
22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM
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What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM
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Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors?
23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM
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For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM
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Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. *NM*
22/02/2011 02:39:20 PM
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Re: For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence.
22/02/2011 02:41:37 PM
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That's possibly the best explanation of literary criticism I've ever seen.
23/02/2011 02:47:12 AM
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I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM
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Re: I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to.
22/02/2011 11:23:38 PM
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That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a channeler.
22/02/2011 11:30:52 PM
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Re: That has very little to do with anything unless you can provide a real-world analogy to a
23/02/2011 12:02:24 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ...
22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM
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Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer?
22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
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I think it has more to do with limitations imposed by how the story was organized and edited.
22/02/2011 07:50:18 PM
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That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 02:15:12 AM
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Re: That's interesting, and I have a weird agree/disagree here; also, that Adam Roberts sucks
23/02/2011 11:02:14 AM
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adam roberts reviews
23/02/2011 03:53:49 AM
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And I suspect those who prefer the BS books are those who largely read WoT for the story. *NM*
23/02/2011 08:06:16 AM
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Oh GAWD!... not another pointer to Robert Adam's incoherant muckraking
24/02/2011 07:47:35 PM
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I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
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Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak.
22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM
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The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM*
22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM
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There are nine, actually...
23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM
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Lovecraft's Necronomicon was fictitious. If you want to count fanfiction, fine. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:38:07 AM
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Based on how poorly worded that response was, I'm not sure what to think of it. *NM*
23/02/2011 12:13:00 AM
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I hope I am misunderstanding you.
23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM
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Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you.
24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM
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If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM
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Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book
24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM
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So wait, style is good?
25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM
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That depends...
23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM
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I didn't say aesthetics was the primary criterion. I named three criteria.
23/02/2011 05:39:03 AM
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the "do you like it" is the most important criterion
23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM
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If you don't mind me asking...
24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM
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I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM
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Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature.
24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM
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I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM
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Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service.
25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM
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...
25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM
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It is not a serious question.
25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM
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Is that so?
25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM
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I'm not fixated with Jordan.
25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM
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Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him?
25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM
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You're conflating two things.
25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM
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All right, now we're getting somewhere.
26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM
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Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity.
26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM
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Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM*
26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM
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No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered.
25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM
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Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM
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Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
25/02/2011 06:05:18 PM
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I'm not wasting my time proving something to an internet moron and troll like you.
25/02/2011 07:36:19 PM
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Ah yes, the wonderful "dissmiss the person who disagrees with me by insulting him tactic"
28/02/2011 02:30:35 PM
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Re: Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion.
26/02/2011 11:06:26 AM
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Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly
23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM
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Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM
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Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics?
23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM
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Of course people read for pleasure.
23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM
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Ok...
24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM
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"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument.
24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM
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I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"?
24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM
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Among living writers?
24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM
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My list would be similar...
26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM
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That was a very good list.
26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM
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Re: That was a very good list.
27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM
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Oh, and another question
27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM
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Re: Oh, and another question
01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM
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I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM
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Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great'
03/03/2011 02:17:06 PM
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He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM*
27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM
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