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I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. Tom Send a noteboard - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM
I want to address that.

"Do you like it?" is not a way of determining if someone is a good writer. It's a way of determining if someone tells an interesting story. I like reading Dan Brown books but I don't think anyone would even try to say he's a good writer. He uses cheap cliffhanger devices to keep you turning the pages. His characters are as deep as a puddle of spilled water and his descriptions are awful, like they've been lifted from the most cliché Harlequin romance novel.

Dan Brown is, in short, something like a car crash. You know it's terrible but the story is fun and so you can't help but read. He's not a good writer, though.

Being a "good writer" typically means several things:

1. Style. A good author chooses his words well, doesn't waste the reader's time and avoids repetition of stock phrases.

2. Aesthetics. A good author has descriptions that paint beautiful pictures. This isn't limited to traditional description, either. DomA mentioned Flaubert; I would add someone like Nabokov. Consider the beginning of Lolita:

Lolita, light of my life, fire of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta.

She was Lo, plain Lo, in the morning, standing four feet ten in one sock. She was Lola in slacks. She was Dolly at school. She was Dolores on the dotted line. But in my arms she was always Lolita.


3. Ideas. Books can be simply entertainment, but usually a good author will fuse entertainment with ideas - the "moral of the story" as the old saying goes. Part of being human is being mortal, knowing that we're going to die, and trying to make some sense out of life while we're here. When a book has a message, it resonates with people and they take that message and make it a part of their lives.

If we're going to look strictly at the genre of fantasy/sci-fi, then you can add "world building" as an element with many facets, where a good author will create a world that feels authentic by creating plausible histories, cultures, language fragments and a framework for why or how things like dragons or magic exist.

In the first three categories Jordan cannot be called a good writer. His style is very formulaic. The books are not written with aesthetics in mind. There are no big ideas.

On world-building, some people think Jordan came close. I see an uneven result, with a terrible "Old Tongue", a lot of countries that really sound the same and a history that is only partially plausible. However, given the absolutely atrocious efforts of others in this field, Jordan isn't so bad.

The story is fairly interesting and keeps people reading, but it's not the way it's told that people like. If someone else grabbed Jordan's story and told it in different words, people wouldn't be upset. To be specific, there are people who like Goodkind and/or Sanderson's continuation of the story at this very website.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3189 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1581 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1222 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1086 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1182 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 942 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 768 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1550 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1290 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1211 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1588 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1266 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1370 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1152 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1127 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 755 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1997 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1183 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1246 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1363 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1318 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 676 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1364 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1066 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1212 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1151 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 992 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1402 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1042 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1080 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1288 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1154 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1142 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1282 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1087 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 742 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1198 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 976 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1089 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 991 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1037 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 972 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1137 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1189 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1098 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 769 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1048 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 898 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1034 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1176 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1115 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1109 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1131 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1170 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1146 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1067 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 675 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 900 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 688 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 987 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 747 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1058 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1217 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 595 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 634 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 725 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1088 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1112 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1063 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1199 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1032 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1206 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 997 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1033 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1107 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 633 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 971 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1122 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1158 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1049 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 997 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1259 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1092 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1149 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 939 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 942 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1094 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 991 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1129 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1201 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1118 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1206 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1227 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1135 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1368 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 761 Views

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