Active Users:662 Time:15/11/2024 10:27:03 PM
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? DomA Send a noteboard - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM
I've read loyally and often, and my love for the series has only lessened over the last couple of years. Still, I never took much time to critique Jordan's skills or style as an author. His voice works for his world, and I like it a lot.


And as one of my French/literature teachers used to say, in the end a great writer is someone people enjoy to read. You do with Jordan, so he's one of your great writers and in many ways that should be enough.

If we look at the established canons of "good writing", Jordan just doesn't fit many of them (Sanderson even less). He's not a very good stylist. His metaphors are often ackward, cliché or downright non-sensical. His grammar and syntax are functional at best and his prose is for the most part utilitarian. He can carry on a story, but the language he uses isn't very imaginative, let alone exceptional. He's also extremely conservative in the literary devices he uses. He was very decent when he decided to evoke through his descriptions - you get a very clear mental image of what he describes, but most often he failed to keep it fresh. When he said something once, he very often re hashed it later, when he had to describe the same thing. His descriptions were too often mundane, he failed to find that special something that make you look at something fairly mundane through a unique or entertaining perspective. Contrary to a lot of people's opinion, Jordan just wasn't a "very descriptive writer" (they really should try Flaubert of Proust if they think Jordan is "descriptive";). The problem is the opposite: his descriptions are too short yet too mundane and too abundant and too repetitive. A low cut yellow silk dress slashed with green is boring, utilitarian. A better descriptive writer will approach descriptions like this from a more unique and special perspective, making having to establish materially a scene an opportunity to tell something about the culture, the character or even the themes and motifs. In a way, Jordan kept it too short and was too systematic about it, creating a very repetitive and occasionally tedious effect - but thankfully these descriptions were always really short.

Another problem with his writing comes from his very large ambitions with WOT. He's writing something epic that isn't an epic and isn't written or structured like an epic is expected to be written. Of course, there are reasons why epics came to be written in certain ways and not others. Jordan rather ambitionned to write the little and great stories in a world while a classic heroic epic is ongoing, so to mix many genres and enter uncharted territory. There's no "map" to writing something like WOT.

The epic in WOT is just the backbone to which he returns when he's not focussed on what goes on around it. He's in some way merged the soap structure and devices with that of the epic. Even with his main hero, Jordan chose to make the mundane as important if not more than the telling of the epic episodes (which he didn't want to deprive of their mundane aspects as well). WOT also borrows from the tropes of the historical novel, but with the added challenge that Jordan couldn't rely on the reader's culture to fill the gaps: he had to include everything about the world he wished his readers to know about, and this space/time existed only in Jordan's own mind.

The other part of the problem comes from the fact Jordan wrote novels that aren't really novels but chapters of one giant story. It was very ambitious and risky, and in part Jordan has failed, literary speaking (storytelling wise it's another matter, and far more subjective). The first few books respected more the classic novel form and structure, but the later books of WOT function less and less as novels, but rather than simply abandonning the form, Jordan insisted on trying to wrote these as novels, with the conservative structure of a novel (he didn't meet the challenge of inventing a form of his own to carry this huge story, one could say). This of course slow down a lot the storytelling, as he added many things just to build up to a last act in each book, and in many of the later books his efforts were rather ackward. Jordan attempted to write novels that would only be large chapters, and sometime the result of that "bastard form" was ackward. As Jordan didn't finish the whole story first (an impossible task), he had to make many compromises a novelist normally won't make if he wants his story to be as good as it could be. Usually, after completion of a novel, the writer has the freedom to go back and fine tune his work, polish or fix the little structural problems, re balance his storylines by adding or removing episodes, take a look back at the development of his themes and fix issues, and so on. The way Jordan wrote WOT, he never had this opportunity. He rather wrote a very large chapter, trying to arrange it as a proper novel then he moved on to the next, never able to go back to fix problems he's created. He had to follow his plan, and trust he's not misjudge anything nor failed to spot any problem. That resulted in many compromises and flaws he had no choice to live with, compounded by his choice to keep using the classic novel structure, so to have his introduction acts, his development acts and his ending in each book. Some of his "episodes" turned out to be too short for the length he would have to carry them (Perrin's late series storyline is such a case, Rand's of course, and Elayne's). Rand Jordan pushed aside for a while, but with Perrin and Elayne Jordan had no choice but to expand and slow the pace, beyond what these storylines called for, and as they spanned many novels, he was stuck with adding a few intro chapters and find temporary conclusions/breaking points. A novelist, or even a writer of a trilogy, would simply look back at the end and tidy and tighten everything up. Once he had published a "chapter", Jordan rather had no choice but to live with his previous decisions, even when he misdjudged the pace at which he could develop the story in the next book. All this makes Jordan appear a worse writer than he actually is. One might say he was over ambitious to think he could keep control of something so vast and so long, as would a "normal novel". One might also say it's unfair to judge his abilities to structure a story in the circumstances, but no one forced Jordan to attempt writing this mammoth either.

All that said, I still very much enjoy the books and those flaws barely hindered my fun reading WOT. I also find him a lot of strengths as a storyteller, worldbuilder and character creator that for me more than compensate for his flaws as a novelist. There's plenty of other books to read for their amazing prose or depth of thought. When I read Jordan I ask for immersion into a story and not to bore me, and that's already more than enough. If anything, my respect for Jordan's skills and, for all the fact it's all from perfect, is relative mastery of something so huge (his mastery of WOT's continuity is in itself an achievement) has increased after seing what Brandon, working under the pressure of a deadline, without being the creator of the material and with much less experience as a writer could do in Jordan's shoes (ie: his AMOL re engineered on the go as a trilogy is so far is a barely enjoyable structural mess that makes Jordan's most poorly structured episodes/novels look really well written in comparison).
Reply to message
Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 21/02/2011 05:41:31 PM 3191 Views
I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured writer. - 21/02/2011 06:44:21 PM 1582 Views
Re: I personally see it as more of RJ being a fantastic story teller, but not a well structured - 22/02/2011 10:59:25 PM 1222 Views
What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 08:08:26 AM 1086 Views
Re: What do you think about the Southern Gothic authors? - 23/02/2011 10:51:57 AM 1183 Views
Oh, it really depends. - 23/02/2011 05:39:07 PM 944 Views
thanks, I'll have a look *NM* - 23/02/2011 05:40:50 PM 768 Views
For the same reason that most people think they have above average intelligence. - 21/02/2011 11:13:34 PM 1551 Views
Thank you. - 21/02/2011 11:43:08 PM 1291 Views
Well Said! - 22/02/2011 02:42:22 PM 1211 Views
I can take a shot at that, since nobody else seems willing to. - 22/02/2011 07:29:20 AM 1590 Views
Do you enjoy reading Robert Jordan's ... - 22/02/2011 04:31:28 PM 1266 Views
Not particularly. - 22/02/2011 10:22:00 PM 1371 Views
Agreed. - 22/02/2011 10:37:08 PM 1152 Views
As far as I'm concerned, the only way to gauge whether an author is good or not is ... - 22/02/2011 03:58:17 PM 1127 Views
Amen *NM* - 22/02/2011 04:32:50 PM 755 Views
Re: Can someone explain to me how Jordan is not a particularly good writer? - 22/02/2011 06:27:11 PM 1998 Views
Brain overload! This is really well thought out. - 23/02/2011 10:22:37 PM 1183 Views
thank you for the insight into the outside view lol - 24/02/2011 04:34:57 PM 1247 Views
I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 10:32:51 PM 1364 Views
Re: I think DomA answered the question best, but the "do you like it" argument is weak. - 22/02/2011 11:16:24 PM 1318 Views
The Necronomicon isn't actually a book, you know. *NM* - 22/02/2011 11:28:29 PM 676 Views
There are nine, actually... - 23/02/2011 12:04:55 AM 1366 Views
I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 23/02/2011 10:57:47 PM 1066 Views
Re: I hope I am misunderstanding you. - 24/02/2011 10:41:09 AM 1214 Views
If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 10:32:01 PM 1153 Views
Re: If the core of the story is all that matters, why read a book - 24/02/2011 11:23:42 PM 992 Views
So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 12:32:07 AM 1403 Views
Re: So wait, style is good? - 25/02/2011 08:53:55 AM 1042 Views
I'm not trolling - 25/02/2011 11:57:18 PM 1080 Views
That depends... - 23/02/2011 03:00:35 AM 1288 Views
the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 23/02/2011 10:45:17 PM 1155 Views
Re: the "do you like it" is the most important criterion - 24/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1144 Views
Thumbs up - IMHO, all discussion can end here - 28/02/2011 05:45:34 PM 1284 Views
Not for quality of writing. - 24/02/2011 05:17:52 PM 1089 Views
Those who can do, the rest are critics. *NM* - 24/02/2011 07:55:50 PM 742 Views
I object, sir! People don't read WoT for the way it's told? - 24/02/2011 12:58:58 AM 1198 Views
If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 01:05:12 AM 976 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 02:19:17 AM 1090 Views
I still don't get it. - 24/02/2011 08:27:50 AM 991 Views
Re: If you don't mind me asking... - 24/02/2011 11:29:14 PM 1038 Views
I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 05:35:27 PM 973 Views
Re: I don't mind that you ask, but I'm not going to engage in a defense of literature. - 24/02/2011 11:26:55 PM 1138 Views
I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 01:57:15 AM 1189 Views
Re: I'm sure you have a wonderful job awaiting in fast food service. - 25/02/2011 08:56:06 AM 1100 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:48:43 PM 769 Views
... - 25/02/2011 01:07:22 AM 1048 Views
Maybe you should have used better prose? - 25/02/2011 01:23:17 AM 899 Views
It is not a serious question. - 25/02/2011 01:53:59 AM 1035 Views
How so? - 25/02/2011 02:59:05 AM 1178 Views
I have every right to use that tone. - 25/02/2011 03:08:14 PM 1116 Views
Is that so? - 25/02/2011 05:58:31 AM 1110 Views
I'm not fixated with Jordan. - 25/02/2011 03:13:56 PM 1131 Views
Then why do you keep trying to qualify the passage in relation to him? - 25/02/2011 06:29:31 PM 1172 Views
You're conflating two things. - 25/02/2011 07:32:59 PM 1147 Views
All right, now we're getting somewhere. - 26/02/2011 12:40:57 AM 1068 Views
you raise very good questions... *NM* - 26/02/2011 09:21:13 AM 675 Views
Okay, here you go. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your sincerity. - 26/02/2011 03:20:44 PM 901 Views
Thank you, and I agree with all your explanations. *NM* - 26/02/2011 07:28:09 PM 688 Views
Glad to hear that. - 27/02/2011 03:42:33 AM 988 Views
No problem, these things happen on the internet. *NM* - 27/02/2011 04:36:57 AM 747 Views
No, it is a serious question, just one that can never be seriously answered. - 25/02/2011 03:28:48 PM 1059 Views
Your opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's if that's your opinion. - 25/02/2011 04:44:57 PM 1218 Views
Jack @$$ snobbery at its best. WOW *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:51:48 PM 595 Views
double post. oh my! *NM* - 28/02/2011 05:52:17 PM 634 Views
Just makes you right twice *NM* - 28/02/2011 09:42:19 PM 725 Views
Re: ... - 25/02/2011 08:59:37 AM 1088 Views
And part 2, on the analysis of writing. - 24/02/2011 01:16:20 AM 1112 Views
Florid desciption is usually not a good thing. - 24/02/2011 05:30:30 PM 1065 Views
Re: I find this whole thing elitist and more than a bit silly - 23/02/2011 06:45:05 AM 1199 Views
Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 08:03:59 AM 1032 Views
Re: Why do you think mind-expanding literature is restricted to the classics? - 23/02/2011 09:25:10 AM 1207 Views
Of course people read for pleasure. - 23/02/2011 09:04:24 PM 997 Views
Ok... - 24/02/2011 08:59:27 AM 1033 Views
"Yeah well, that's, like, just your opinion, man." Good argument. - 24/02/2011 03:43:24 PM 1107 Views
*NM* - 24/02/2011 05:37:02 PM 633 Views
I find your above average tastes and intelligence uninspiring. - 24/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 971 Views
I'm curious to hear who Tom and DomA consider a "very good writer"? - 24/02/2011 05:49:13 PM 1123 Views
Among living writers? - 24/02/2011 08:16:08 PM 1158 Views
No Rushdie? - 24/02/2011 09:22:46 PM 1050 Views
I was considering mentioning Rushdie. - 24/02/2011 09:32:20 PM 998 Views
My list would be similar... - 26/02/2011 07:24:11 AM 1260 Views
That was a very good list. - 26/02/2011 03:07:31 PM 1094 Views
Re: That was a very good list. - 27/02/2011 04:51:43 AM 1149 Views
Once I finish Hugo I'm probably going to read Druon. - 27/02/2011 02:30:03 PM 940 Views
Oh, and another question - 27/02/2011 05:28:47 PM 943 Views
Re: Oh, and another question - 01/03/2011 03:42:02 AM 1096 Views
One final question, if you'll indulge me... - 01/03/2011 06:43:23 PM 991 Views
Well, until I have time to return to your previous post but... - 01/03/2011 07:45:13 PM 1131 Views
I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 27/02/2011 11:14:30 AM 1201 Views
You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 27/02/2011 02:43:46 PM 1119 Views
Re: You like Solzhenitsyn but not other Russian writers? - 02/03/2011 11:47:19 PM 1206 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 28/02/2011 11:51:49 PM 1229 Views
Re: I think the two of you have taken too narrow a meaning of 'great' - 03/03/2011 12:01:30 AM 1135 Views
Link to DomA Post from up above: - 03/03/2011 12:20:11 AM 1368 Views
He's a great storyteller, but his prose is somewhat uninspiring. *NM* - 27/02/2011 07:28:00 PM 761 Views

Reply to Message