Yeah, you're right about the fish - I was reaching (and typed too fast to think)
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 10/02/2011 05:30:29 PM
Sorry, it was a messy post - was at work on a busy day
Basically I was saying that the Grail legend had Messianic overtones and connections, because you could look at many aspects of them, and their connection to characters and places in Christian lore, to see glimpses of an attempt to reconcile early Christianity with Welsh and Celtic mythology. It's not easy to summarize, because there are a lot of variants of the legends with different forms written by various writers over time (the most famous are Chretien de Troyes and Sir Mallory, who wrote 'L'Morte d'Arthur' but I'll try my best so that you can see where I was coming from.
According to ancient traditions regarding inheritance, the reigning king became one with the land by marrying the queen, which may indicate a matrilineal chain of succession, where the matriarch holds lands and titles, and her consort inherits rulership of these through her. So the queen was synonymous with the land, and the king was her chosen consort. This is the connection that later came to be known as the identification of the Fisher King with the health and wellbeing of the land. There are some interpretations that this is why Queen Gwenevere was so important to Camelot; once the union between her and Arthur were severed, he no longer had the right to reign, and the land suffered.
The title 'Messios' was used to refer to the Fisher King in the 'Perlesvaus', where it could be seen as an attempt to render 'Messiah' into the language and culture of the ancient Welsh and/or Celtic legends. King Bran the Blessed (who is also called 'Bron' in some myths) is mentioned as having received a wound in his thigh, and he spent most of his time fishing. According other legends mentioning Bron, he was called The Rich Fisher, because he attended to Jesus and the disciples at the last supper. In 'The Romance of Perceval/Didot Perceval), the chapter 'The Castle of the Fisher King', states that King Bron was Percevals' grandfather, and that he was the current guardian of the Grail. This idea had appeared before, in the 'Mabinogion' - Bran was said to possess the magical cauldron of healing. The holy grail or sangraal seems to have been identified with their legends of the magical cauldron. King Pellas in these legends also has a connection to Biblical lore - he was said to be the direct descendant of Joshua.
The Arthurian legends later developed to suggest that he would return as a messiah to restore justice and health to the land, which is parallel to the role Jesus' return would have. You could even look at the variants of this aspect of the legend, in which Arthur is said to run with the Wild Hunt as an Arthurian version of the Book of Revelation.
Basically I was saying that the Grail legend had Messianic overtones and connections, because you could look at many aspects of them, and their connection to characters and places in Christian lore, to see glimpses of an attempt to reconcile early Christianity with Welsh and Celtic mythology. It's not easy to summarize, because there are a lot of variants of the legends with different forms written by various writers over time (the most famous are Chretien de Troyes and Sir Mallory, who wrote 'L'Morte d'Arthur' but I'll try my best so that you can see where I was coming from.
According to ancient traditions regarding inheritance, the reigning king became one with the land by marrying the queen, which may indicate a matrilineal chain of succession, where the matriarch holds lands and titles, and her consort inherits rulership of these through her. So the queen was synonymous with the land, and the king was her chosen consort. This is the connection that later came to be known as the identification of the Fisher King with the health and wellbeing of the land. There are some interpretations that this is why Queen Gwenevere was so important to Camelot; once the union between her and Arthur were severed, he no longer had the right to reign, and the land suffered.
The title 'Messios' was used to refer to the Fisher King in the 'Perlesvaus', where it could be seen as an attempt to render 'Messiah' into the language and culture of the ancient Welsh and/or Celtic legends. King Bran the Blessed (who is also called 'Bron' in some myths) is mentioned as having received a wound in his thigh, and he spent most of his time fishing. According other legends mentioning Bron, he was called The Rich Fisher, because he attended to Jesus and the disciples at the last supper. In 'The Romance of Perceval/Didot Perceval), the chapter 'The Castle of the Fisher King', states that King Bron was Percevals' grandfather, and that he was the current guardian of the Grail. This idea had appeared before, in the 'Mabinogion' - Bran was said to possess the magical cauldron of healing. The holy grail or sangraal seems to have been identified with their legends of the magical cauldron. King Pellas in these legends also has a connection to Biblical lore - he was said to be the direct descendant of Joshua.
The Arthurian legends later developed to suggest that he would return as a messiah to restore justice and health to the land, which is parallel to the role Jesus' return would have. You could even look at the variants of this aspect of the legend, in which Arthur is said to run with the Wild Hunt as an Arthurian version of the Book of Revelation.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
Rand is the Great Serpent
08/02/2011 04:21:32 AM
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Yeah, that seems logical, funny to see rand bite himself in the ass :p *NM*
08/02/2011 06:31:44 AM
- 475 Views
I want to reply and say that's not exactly how I picture it, but I don't want to be dirty. *NM*
08/02/2011 06:50:17 AM
- 519 Views
That actually seems cosmically plausible - but I really hope this is not the case
08/02/2011 03:27:29 PM
- 1033 Views
But that has always been the case. I am astounded that it isn't recognized more often...
08/02/2011 03:58:24 PM
- 902 Views
This. There's a reason one of his archetypes is the Fisher King. *NM*
08/02/2011 07:00:05 PM
- 481 Views
The issue is that the Fisher King story is about the Land, not the People
08/02/2011 08:02:24 PM
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None of this is contradicted by what I have posited
08/02/2011 09:16:48 PM
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But the chess analogy is what I'm seeing - the Dragon is necessary in degree not in total.
09/02/2011 02:42:15 PM
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The Fisher King is not a messianic myth.
08/02/2011 10:07:44 PM
- 892 Views
Fisher King title and legends are connected to the Messianic mythos
09/02/2011 09:47:14 PM
- 1064 Views
The disciples, not Jesus, were the "fishers of men." EDITED.
09/02/2011 10:08:24 PM
- 760 Views
Yeah, you're right about the fish - I was reaching (and typed too fast to think)
10/02/2011 05:30:29 PM
- 707 Views
Re: But that has always been the case. I am astounded that it isn't recognized more often...
09/02/2011 07:47:14 AM
- 791 Views
You two are like a married couple without the benefit of the makeup sex.
09/02/2011 09:30:10 AM
- 952 Views
Huh? No. You are so off it's not even funny.
09/02/2011 03:16:05 AM
- 977 Views
Looks like somebody hasn't read The Gathering Storm.
09/02/2011 06:17:55 AM
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Re: Looks like somebody hasn't read The Gathering Storm.
09/02/2011 06:20:21 AM
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Atop Dragonmount, for one...
09/02/2011 07:36:56 AM
- 880 Views
I'm exhausted, so I may be misremembering.
09/02/2011 09:27:18 AM
- 849 Views
You sound like Ishamael
09/02/2011 02:38:52 PM
- 834 Views
Re: You sound like Ishamael
09/02/2011 03:17:58 PM
- 818 Views
I'm definitely not confusing this with the real world roflmao
09/02/2011 03:54:04 PM
- 908 Views
Re: I'm definitely not confusing this with the real world roflmao
09/02/2011 06:10:01 PM
- 910 Views
Seems to me that you're confused.
09/02/2011 08:27:06 PM
- 681 Views
The amount of elitism on this board would be depressing if it weren't so damned funny.
09/02/2011 09:18:13 PM
- 789 Views
What depresses me...
09/02/2011 11:23:13 PM
- 725 Views
I, personally, like it. It makes sense for the Dragon to be an incarnation of the Serpent.
09/02/2011 11:39:28 PM
- 839 Views