Active Users:1168 Time:23/11/2024 04:47:57 AM
I never said she could - I said she sensed them, and felt the woman's channeling. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 09/02/2011 03:04:00 PM
WH
With the CK

Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!
Then she had no time for thought of anything as the golden-haired woman spun around and began channeling. Verin could not see the weaves, but she knew when she was fighting off an attack on her life, and she had come too far to die here.


You are correct that it's seen as weakness, but it clearly doesn't mean it doesn't happen... we've seen plenty of examples of even experienced Channelers doing this, even though it's open talked about as being bad form.


The issue is not whether this doesn't happen; it seems to be about whether you can extrapolate from the few instances where gestures are necessary and where they are often used to consider that this is a reasonable explanation for how Lanfear could predict and slice Rands' weaves in the scene in the Stone. I think that is where there is a big leap in logic with a lot of assumptions loaded into it.

I bolded the areas in Verin's POV which indicate that Graendal turned without gesturing and showed that Verin could sense the woman channeling something, but could not see it. The only thing that makes sense is that Graendal was reversing the weaves she was attacking them with, and Verin's recognized that even though she couldn't see the weaves, the Forsaken was using the Power.

AS clearly perform way more weaves including gestures than other groups, but we've seen it from others as well ...


Yes, but this is not really the debate - I've established that while other groups or individual channelers may adopt gestures for certain weaves, that doesn't mean the weaves require the gesture. Nynaeve used to use her herbs to focus her Healing as a wilder, and she was trained in the Aes Sedai method of Healing, but we actually have a POV from her in TOM in which she mentions that Delving works better if hands were used, but it still worked - implying that the hands are not a requirement, but a focus for concentration.



Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman, but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane's hand, small enough to escape detection she hoped, but enough to burn a hole through this woman who—


Cyndane did not gesture with her hand - a ball of fire came from it.

Darius' explanation is that Lanfear would have seen Rand make a gesture and reacted to it, but A) she wouldn't have known which flow was used unless using a ward since a weave of Air often triggers invisible effects while that of Fire is visible and B) even if he gestured, if this was a common element in channeling, she'd have no way of knowing which weave he tried to use. The best explanation is that she had a ward up, sensed saidin being used and sliced his weave as soon as she detected it.

The Asha'man training includes gestures too it seems as we've seen on a number of occasions:

WH
With the CK

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

Everyone seems to raise their hands in some form or another for Balefire, and Lightning as well as Fireballs ... all the "aggressive" or "combat" weaves seem to have some form of gesture. We don't see a lot of examples of anyone weaving combative weaves without aiming with their hands ...


Well, that is incorrect in terms of lightning and fireballs - we already know that the Wise Ones and damane in general do not raise their hands for these weaves. We also know that there are different variations of the lightning weave - one that is aimed with the hands (possibly just focusing ambient electrical energy) and the variation that calls lightning from the sky. We've never seen any gesture used to call lightning from the air - we don't even see the channeler looking up to use this weave.

Further, my point was that while some groups or individual channelers use gestures, those gestures are not required.

And further, I raised this point before - it seems that raising a hand is an aid to concentration to aim combat weaves, but not a requirement. For example, when Nynaeve and Moghedien fought their first battle, Nynaeve thought that if any servant came in, all they would see would be two women glaring at each other across the room, even though their Shields and raw power were locked in a close fight. And when Asmodean fought Rand, both were throwing weaves at each other while running, but Asmodean wasn't gesturing at all - he was focused on running, implying that he wasn't gesturing but focusing his weaves using his eyesight.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
Reply to message
Question about Rand and Lanfear's battle before Moiraine's game-saving tackle, and other ?s - 04/02/2011 01:05:56 AM 1654 Views
I thought of another... - 04/02/2011 01:10:23 AM 886 Views
Re: Question about Rand and Lanfear's battle before Moiraine's game-saving tackle, and other ?s - 04/02/2011 01:52:55 AM 1011 Views
Re: Question about Rand and Lanfear's battle before Moiraine's game-saving tackle, and other ?s - 06/02/2011 08:15:43 PM 818 Views
You're misapplying practices. - 07/02/2011 01:08:22 PM 773 Views
Still disagree... - 08/02/2011 06:11:38 AM 705 Views
Re: Still disagree... - 08/02/2011 11:58:19 AM 710 Views
Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? - 09/02/2011 05:45:13 AM 788 Views
Have YOU? - 15/02/2011 12:47:39 AM 964 Views
She doesn't have to overhear them to know that something is fishy - 21/02/2011 10:35:41 AM 683 Views
There are ways of detecting a man's weaves. - 04/02/2011 04:49:55 AM 749 Views
Some ideas - 04/02/2011 08:26:09 AM 702 Views
No, I think RJ just didn't think it through, seeing as Rand sliced Lanfear's invisible weaves too... - 04/02/2011 11:42:38 AM 731 Views
Re: It might not be that hard - 04/02/2011 12:20:02 PM 784 Views
it's different - 04/02/2011 02:21:44 PM 733 Views
So what stopped Lanfear from flicking him against the skull with a surprise club of Air... - 04/02/2011 02:33:53 PM 787 Views
nothing - 04/02/2011 02:45:52 PM 758 Views
Gestures and Weaves go hand in hand and since flows originate from the body you can logically - 05/02/2011 05:45:00 PM 750 Views
In general, only third age Aes Sedai gesture when they weave - it's a block imposed by training. - 07/02/2011 06:20:33 PM 791 Views
Not true - 08/02/2011 01:54:17 PM 594 Views
Your example proved my point - LTT only said that it was needed for certain weaves. - 08/02/2011 04:20:28 PM 1521 Views
Hmm... - 08/02/2011 05:38:13 PM 685 Views
It's a flawed and incorrect given all the examples we've seen in the books. - 08/02/2011 08:36:32 PM 580 Views
Verin could not see the weaves - 08/02/2011 10:16:56 PM 679 Views
Also... - 08/02/2011 11:35:20 PM 586 Views
Well, that's partially the point I'm bringing up. - 09/02/2011 03:19:07 PM 627 Views
I never said she could - I said she sensed them, and felt the woman's channeling. - 09/02/2011 03:04:00 PM 619 Views
I think this is the crux of the matter - 09/02/2011 03:32:18 PM 696 Views

Reply to Message