Active Users:562 Time:06/11/2024 02:36:34 AM
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM
There are multiple indications that there is a significant gap between Nynaeve and the most powerful female channeler.

Alivia is twice referred to as being "considerably" and then "significantly" stronger than Nynaeve.

ON Linda's list on 13th depository - which I sometimes disagree with, but not in this case - she has about 3 levels above Nynaeve, backed by solid evidence.

And this is confirmed by the fact that Semirhage has at least three levels of female Forsaken above her as well - Graendal then Cyndane and then Lanfear.

The gap is real. And as we've said before - there are many factors influencing "who would win in a fight", some of them random.

But this gap does give a clear advantage to the stronger members of the Forsaken. Whether that advantage is driven home or not would of course depend on the particular set of circumstances.


I'm pretty sure there are a few levels above Nynaeve, but the relevance of it remains dubious. If Alivia is 5 points stronger than Nynaeve, and Reanne only has a strength of 15 then she will consider Alivia to have a third of her whole strength as a greater potential than Nynaeve. This will obviously look enormous to her, and she will describe Alivia as 'considerably stronger'. If Graendal measures this difference it will constitute about 5% of her own strength and she'll consider Nynaeve to be very close to her. It's all a matter of perspective.

You only need to have Nynaeve 90, Alivia 93, Cyndane 96, Lanfear 100 to see that it completely fulfills every quote in the series, and still gives Lanfear only 10% greater strength than Nynaeve, which could be akin to the difference between Rand and Rahvin, and no one believes that Rand would easily defeat Rahvin.

As I said, you can't offer real examples of a pecking order among the Forsaken, except for the sole example of Moghedien's genuine weakness and her avoidance of the other Chosen. They do not defer to each other's power and never have. Lanfear is as strong as possible, and has no lack of skill, and I've never seen one of the Chosen defer to her. Quite the contrary, and she's not obviously going to defeat the others if they stand up to her.

I remain of the opinion that any of the Chosen (except Moghedien) can openly and directly challenge the others and stand an excellent chance of winning, as long as they fight intelligently. True, I wouldn't easily bet on Mesaana defeating Demandred in an open duel, but I think he'd have to fight his ass off and would be hard-pressed to win.

You continuously ignore the one true fact about the Chosen... if any of them was truly weak they'd be dead. Its actively encouraged in the Shadow. Demandred wouldn't ally with two obviously weak allies. He obviously recognizes that their strength approaches his and he's keeping them at bay until he can go for them invidually. Mesaana spoke about overwhelming Semirhage in the most recent book. It's obvious that twelve of the thirteen Forsaken are so close in power and skill that they won't easily go for one another unless they really have a large advantage. Even they know that they could lose. If Ishamael or Lanfear was significantly more powerful than any of those twelve, they would have destroyed them. Clearly they can't. You speak about Semirhage hating Lanfear but not being able to kill her, but then why hasn't Lanfear gone for Semirhage? Lanfear knows it will be a huge duel.

I think Brandon's answers have clearly shown that Nynaeve is very close to the top tier in strength. That makes her close to Rand and the other Forsaken. With training she could challenge any of them. Moghedien said as much when she suggested Nynaeve should meet Rahvin unblocked one day.


I still don't think Moghedien is so far below the others (clearly she's the weakest) though. She'd be dead if she was. Lanfear would have gone after her as a potential threat in TAR, or any of the others for fear of assassination. Their contempt is at her cowardice and her lesser abilities with the OP. None of the view her as the kind of threat they view the others because they all know she's too chicken to attack openly.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2217 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1150 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1168 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1099 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1101 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 980 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1072 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 953 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1069 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 526 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 514 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1085 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 931 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 950 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 933 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 888 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 979 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 994 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 863 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 951 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1129 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1041 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1045 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 968 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 984 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 987 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 800 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 532 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1012 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 885 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 849 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1005 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 956 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 930 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 936 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 927 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1019 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 881 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 911 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1074 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1024 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1010 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 860 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1113 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 866 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1286 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 953 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1219 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 992 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 564 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 887 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 864 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 974 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 883 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 823 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1083 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1034 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 873 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 869 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 942 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 854 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 853 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 833 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 893 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 947 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 620 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1025 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1025 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 837 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 974 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 898 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 902 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 825 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 880 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 797 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 856 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 478 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 521 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 813 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1207 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 951 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 871 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 625 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 927 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 844 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 863 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 760 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 916 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 946 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 866 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 973 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 851 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 908 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 574 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 498 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 751 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1059 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 857 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 877 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 969 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 914 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 955 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 582 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 600 Views

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