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Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM
All 3 are forced but Elayne and Egwene have far more to grow in terms of % of total strength than Nynaeve. It's clear that Elayne is maybe 50% of Egwene after Egwene's damane training, so maybe in the ballpark of Verin to Egwene's Moiraine. We see that from the text.

The Forsaken scoff at Moghedien's cowardice, not outright about her strength. Her methods they find contemptible not her actual OP level. The closest comment about her strength is Graendal's comment that Moghedien was jealous of anyone stronger, which actually alludes to her being an idiot since there are obviously so few people stronger. Moghedien has specialized skills and, but judges things on raw power where the other FS judge on skill... Lancer fought off an enemy more than 2x her strength based on skill... Moghedien, if she was more skilled, should have been able to do the same. Not one comment from a FS says that Moghedien is weak in the Power, only a jealous coward.

Moghedien has at least had meetings with Graendal off screen... Graendal tells Sammael that she believed Moghedien to be dead as she missed their last meeting.

Nynaeve channels regularly to nearly her maximum in almost every scene she's in, even well before her block is broken. There is no evidence that her block stunted her strength progression, only her skill progression.


Meaning that with Egwene forced to 50% or more of her OWN potential after the damane experience, she is FARTHER advanced in terms of growth than Nynaeve is by that point.

Again, our disagreement is based on your overestimation of Moiraine's relative strength to the Forsaken.

By having Nynaeve already at Moiraine's strength early on, you therefore mistakenly believe that Nyneaeve was further advanced at that point than she truly was.

If Nynaeve is 85 on the female ladder, and Moiraine is 30, then Nynaeve was barely over 30% of her strength when she matched Moiraine, leaving 70% of her growth still to come.

Egwene, in turn, was at signficantly more than 50% of her own strength after she was forced. Hence, Egwene is further along than Nynaeve.
This message last edited by Shannow on 05/02/2011 at 07:06:28 AM
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2226 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1159 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1178 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1109 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1109 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 989 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1080 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 960 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1075 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 530 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 516 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1092 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 942 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 958 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 942 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 900 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 989 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1007 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 875 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 960 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1137 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1050 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1051 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 978 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 995 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 993 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 806 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 538 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1022 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 888 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 947 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 896 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 859 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1014 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 962 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 939 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 944 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 936 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1025 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 888 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 924 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 977 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1084 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1034 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1018 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 869 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1124 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 879 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1295 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 963 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1229 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1002 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 567 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 894 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 886 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 983 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 897 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 834 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 799 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1097 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1044 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 883 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 880 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 957 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 860 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 861 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 846 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 902 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 954 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 623 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1034 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1034 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 846 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 982 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 908 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 911 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 835 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 891 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 809 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 870 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 481 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 524 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 822 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1216 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 959 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 881 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 629 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 935 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 855 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 872 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 769 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 926 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 956 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 878 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 991 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 861 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 916 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 577 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 504 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 757 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1071 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 865 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 889 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 980 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 924 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1174 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1003 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 967 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 585 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 604 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 992 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 934 Views
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