Wheel of Time Messageboard: Explain to me how Moghedien is only 60% of Lanfear and managed to do anything? by darius

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Explain to me how Moghedien is only 60% of Lanfear and managed to do anything? darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 28/01/2011 06:25:28 PM

While Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien, that means nothing if Moghedien is indeed barely 60-70% as strong as Lanfear, as is MY contention. Then Nynaeve could easily have a LOT of room to improve beyond that point. Which is my point, and which would show that the strength distribution is much more spread out than your theory suggests.

To address some of the specifics in your argument:

Here's some more circular reasoning:

You first said that the quote relating to Logain being able to break free from 5 women is inconsistent because Rand could not break free from 4 women. And then you say that this proves that the 5 women were weaker than Rand's 4 women, BECAUSE Logain could break free from them. Well, which is it? Either the quote is inconsistent with the evidence, or ONE possibility could be that Logain's women were weaker than Rand's women. It can't be both.

Either way, I gave a number of OTHER reasons why Rand was not in a state to utilize his full strength. Not to mention the possibility that Logain could in fact still have been STRONGER than Rand at this point in the series.

I'm rationalizing the inconsistency in the books. Logain is not stronger than Rand at this point in the series ... Rand was already strong enough to face any of the FS males at this point (he'd killed off Rahvin just before in fact). Later quotes about the weakest sisters given these types of tasks just reinforce the point.

In any case, the comparison with Rand's case is unnecessary, because the Logain example is all we need for the purposes of establishing Nynaeve's strength.

No it does not. Nynaeve's shield was about to break, but we have no clue how much effort Logain was making, nor do we know how good Nynaeve is at shielding, she did after all fail to shield Elayne, which if she was as much stronger as you claim she should not have had a problem with.

Regarding Logain's women themselves: I have already given you the benefit of the doubt by giving them an average strength of only 1.5 times Daigian's strength.

That makes ALL of them weaker than the average Aes Sedai. Personally, I think that is a significant underestimation of their strength, as it is unlikely that ALL 6 women selected to shield a false Dragon would be below average strength, but I am willing to assume that, to prove my point.

1.5x Daigian is a significant margin! that's a 50% increase in strength over Daigian, try 1.1x-1.2x Daigian for these women!

By making them only 1.5 times Dagian's strength, I am saying that on average, they are ALL significantly weaker than the average Aes Sedai, who is about twice Dagian's strength.

So the calculation that makes Nynaeve 8 times as strong as Dagian is an extremely conservative one using this logic.

No that would make all of these women probably stronger than Siuan is now, and that's very unlikely.

We have to take a step back at this point to remember that all we are doing here is to try and compare Nynaeve's strength to that of the 6 women who shielded Logain. Looking at the number of women who shielded Semirhage is irrelevant, because RJ has stated that it is much more difficult to shield someone of the opposite sex, than it is to shield someone of the same gender.

So we want to compare apples with apples here. 5 women conservatively estimated to each be 1.5 times Dagian's strength would have struggled to shield Logain, just like Nynaeve was barely able to shield him. So based on this comparisn, Nynaeve's strength would appear to be comparative to that of these 5 women.

Making her at least 8 times stronger than Daigian, 4 times stronger than the average Aes Sedai, and almost 3 times stronger than Moiraine. Even if Egwene is then close to twice as strong as Moiraine, this would make Nynaeve approximately 50% stronger than Egwene, which has been my contention all along.

Firstly, Nynaeve could not hold the shield on Logain so she is clearly not as strong as the 6 combined that did hold the shield

Secondly you have claimed that Daigian is a 10 in strength (which I think is conservative, but I'll use it for this purpose). 5 women at 1.5x her would be 75 and should have been able to hold any man. But 5 women who are 1.2x Daigian (total of 60) would not have been able to hold him but add in a 6th at that level and he's contained by the combined 72 ... certainly there will be variations here (linking benefits, shielding Talents etc), but when you compare to Rand (where the same variables exist) ... the 4 women holding him were likely much closer to 2x Daigian, so an 80 combined, but once they lost that extra 20 he shattered a 60 shield.

This would fit the bonfire candle quote.

Nothing really supports that quote except Moiraine's hyperbole ... face it that quote has never been literal and wasn't meant to be. If it was Nynaeve would be 10,000x Egwene and we all know that's not the case.

It would fit Aviendha's reference to Egwene being able to overwhelm Amys and Melaine combined.

It would fit with the fact that Dagian is half as strong as the average sister and a third as strong as Moiraine.

No one is contesting these things, it's a matter of the scale we use, not the facts from the book, it's clear that Egwene is approximately 2x Sheriam (Amys+Melaine) and that Moiraine is about 3x Daigian. The question has always been where do the Forsaken level women fit on that Scale ... I say 2x Moiraine you think more than that.

And it would fit with Nynaeve being able to duplicate the shielding effect of 5 linked sisters on Logain. Bearing in mind that there are benefits to a linked shield which makes it even HARDER to break than that of a single individual shielder.

It really does fit the evidence perfectly.

We have no idea if Nynaeve's shield was able to duplicate the effect of those 5 women. Logain put no effort into it and Nynaeve herself noted that it was a very slow build that bent her shield with no real effort then wondered what would happen if he put any effort into it! All we are told about the shielding effect later is that 6 women could hold the shield, but that if it had been 5 he could have broken free ... no idea if that would have been easy or if that would have been a struggle for Logain.

What we can see from the book is that Nynaeve's shield really had no chance of holding Logain if he had chosen to break it.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!

This message last edited by darius_sedai on 28/01/2011 at 06:29:55 PM

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Could Norla be the other woman stronger than Nynaeve? darius_sedai - 22/01/2011 06:54:36 PM 2049 Views

It's a nice idea, really newyorkersedai - 22/01/2011 07:04:03 PM 1103 Views

we don't know the strength difference between Cadsuane and Nynaeve darius_sedai - 22/01/2011 08:55:48 PM 1037 Views

Nynaeve is of course roughly twice as strong as Cadsuane... Shannow - 24/01/2011 10:26:49 PM 1137 Views

Still sticking to the nonsense I see... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2011 12:14:12 AM 945 Views

you and your assumptions crack me up ... there is zero evidence that Nyn is 2x Cadsuane darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:41:33 PM 965 Views

Waits for the candle flame vs. bonfire quote to appear... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2011 05:01:28 PM 998 Views

*blows out the friggin candle* ... why does anyone take EoTW Moiraine quotes seriously? darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 09:41:53 PM 971 Views

tGH, but I agree... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2011 04:58:08 AM 1044 Views

Re: tGH, but I agree... Sidious - 27/01/2011 07:29:15 AM 899 Views

I think it's a matter of perspective too darius_sedai - 27/01/2011 05:12:29 PM 851 Views

Nynaeve temporarily holds Logain shielded on her own, while 5 average strength Aes Sedai cannot... Shannow - 27/01/2011 05:35:26 PM 759 Views

Another inconsistency ... since 4 women held a shield on Rand who is Stronger than Logain EDIT darius_sedai - 27/01/2011 07:47:31 PM 849 Views

Not an inconsistency and if you analyse it... Shannow - 27/01/2011 08:21:39 PM 1081 Views

I'm not dismissing the quote I'm saying 6 weak women held Logain darius_sedai - 27/01/2011 09:21:34 PM 892 Views

Circular logic... Shannow - 27/01/2011 09:49:40 PM 960 Views

Explain to me how Moghedien is only 60% of Lanfear and managed to do anything? darius_sedai - 28/01/2011 06:25:28 PM 997 Views

Easy. And I dispute that all 6 women shielding Logain were only 10% stronger than an Accepted. Shannow - 29/01/2011 12:42:54 PM 731 Views

Not even gonna bother ... So many flawed statements in here it's not worth the effort to correct you *NM* darius_sedai - 29/01/2011 04:50:01 PM 438 Views

Wait... what? fionwe1987 - 27/01/2011 11:16:32 PM 817 Views

Re: Wait... what? Zeratul - 28/01/2011 12:26:22 AM 767 Views

Nope... fionwe1987 - 28/01/2011 01:24:18 AM 853 Views

Yeah, but... Zeratul - 28/01/2011 12:53:26 PM 910 Views

Therer is a direct quote in New Spring darius_sedai - 28/01/2011 02:20:40 PM 882 Views

Yup... *NM* fionwe1987 - 28/01/2011 02:42:15 PM 470 Views

Thanks Zeratul - 28/01/2011 04:05:47 PM 931 Views

Not really the case though darius_sedai - 28/01/2011 04:54:28 PM 726 Views

That's your evidence? You mean like Caddy defers to Nynaeve? Shannow - 28/01/2011 02:29:46 PM 820 Views

So Elayne is Cadsunae in you stupid play? fionwe1987 - 28/01/2011 02:44:07 PM 789 Views

Getting hot under the collar and irrational again, I see... Shannow - 28/01/2011 03:01:14 PM 740 Views

right tGH but still! *NM* darius_sedai - 27/01/2011 04:02:57 PM 414 Views

It will be someone who was alive at some point during the series... Shannow - 22/01/2011 07:11:57 PM 1047 Views

it's obviously a stretch, just a random thought darius_sedai - 22/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 1052 Views

Strength in the Power and skill in the Power are not the same thing. Ghavrel - 22/01/2011 10:33:12 PM 877 Views

true, but nearly 300 years ago when she was a new AS she had yet to learn that lesson darius_sedai - 23/01/2011 04:49:33 PM 861 Views

Possibly? But unlikely. redqueen - 23/01/2011 11:12:01 PM 824 Views

The 6 are... Shannow - 24/01/2011 10:09:33 PM 1144 Views

I disagree. If anything Semirhage is at the same strength level darius_sedai - 24/01/2011 11:10:30 PM 913 Views

Agree and disagree... Shannow - 25/01/2011 10:44:26 AM 870 Views

Re: Agree and disagree... Sidious - 25/01/2011 11:04:11 PM 803 Views

I didn't say Semirhage is definitely one of the 6, but his answer leaves it as a viable possibility. Shannow - 26/01/2011 07:36:52 AM 924 Views

I'd disagree with that statement. I think he definitively ruled her out with his comment darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:40:14 PM 722 Views

Not really Sidious - 26/01/2011 05:15:59 PM 802 Views

Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person *NM* Vidarfe - 25/01/2011 10:24:15 AM 405 Views

I think Shannows' point is that even with reduced strength, Lanfear is still the most powerful RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2011 05:30:34 PM 868 Views

Re: The 6 are... Sidious - 25/01/2011 10:51:40 PM 929 Views

This seems like the most likely case to me, but Sommeryn is unsubstantiated to date darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:43:27 PM 751 Views

I think there's a stronger case for Someryn than most women Sidious - 26/01/2011 05:07:03 PM 902 Views

I agree that she is the most likely candidate, but there is nothing beyond speculation darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 09:45:27 PM 771 Views

Talaan isn't stronger. She is the same strength and has been actively channeling for 6 years darius_sedai - 24/01/2011 11:14:31 PM 875 Views

I agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 24/01/2011 03:56:00 PM 815 Views

Possible... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2011 12:17:42 AM 787 Views

none whatsoever ... purely speculating here *NM* darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:44:15 PM 357 Views

Not necessarily sleepinghour - 25/01/2011 08:07:02 PM 736 Views

But that doesn't answer why a toothless wilder in a backwoods hut would have drawn darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:49:33 PM 824 Views

nah Sidious - 25/01/2011 10:55:10 PM 1060 Views

it's obvious that Norla made her "earn" the ornaments darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 04:47:32 PM 956 Views

Re: it's obvious that Norla made her "earn" the ornaments Sidious - 26/01/2011 05:17:16 PM 841 Views

I can see that as a possibility too darius_sedai - 26/01/2011 10:22:02 PM 843 Views

Re: I can see that as a possibility too Sidious - 27/01/2011 07:38:31 AM 937 Views

we'll always disagree I suppose darius_sedai - 27/01/2011 04:47:42 PM 892 Views

Strongest since the breaking? I disagree Rurouni_Kenshin - 19/08/2011 01:09:37 PM 1063 Views

I doubt it. Gher - 26/01/2011 03:53:33 AM 860 Views

Could Norla be the other woman stronger than Nynaeve? ljgibbs - 26/01/2011 09:31:36 AM 953 Views

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<quote id="188120">
<quote>While Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien, that means nothing if Moghedien is indeed barely 60-70% as strong as Lanfear, as is MY contention. Then Nynaeve could easily have a LOT of room to improve beyond that point. Which is my point, and which would show that the strength distribution is much more spread out than your theory suggests.

To address some of the specifics in your argument:

Here's some more circular reasoning:

You first said that the quote relating to Logain being able to break free from 5 women is inconsistent because Rand could not break free from 4 women. And then you say that this proves that the 5 women were weaker than Rand's 4 women, BECAUSE Logain could break free from them. Well, which is it? Either the quote is inconsistent with the evidence, or ONE possibility could be that Logain's women were weaker than Rand's women. It can't be both.

Either way, I gave a number of OTHER reasons why Rand was not in a state to utilize his full strength. Not to mention the possibility that Logain could in fact still have been STRONGER than Rand at this point in the series.</quote>

I'm rationalizing the inconsistency in the books.  Logain is not stronger than Rand at this point in the series ... Rand was already strong enough to face any of the FS males at this point (he'd killed off Rahvin just before in fact).  Later quotes about the weakest sisters given these types of tasks just reinforce the point.

<quote>
In any case, the comparison with Rand's case is unnecessary, because the Logain example is all we need for the purposes of establishing Nynaeve's strength.</quote>

No it does not.  Nynaeve's shield was about to break, but we have no clue how much effort Logain was making, nor do we know how good Nynaeve is at shielding, she did after all fail to shield Elayne, which if she was as much stronger as you claim she should not have had a problem with.

<quote>Regarding Logain's women themselves: I have already given you the benefit of the doubt by giving them an average strength of only 1.5 times Daigian's strength.

That makes ALL of them weaker than the average Aes Sedai. Personally, I think that is a significant underestimation of their strength, as it is unlikely that ALL 6 women selected to shield a false Dragon would be below average strength, but I am willing to assume that, to prove my point.</quote>

1.5x Daigian is a significant margin!  that's a 50% increase in strength over Daigian, try 1.1x-1.2x Daigian for these women!

<quote>By making them only 1.5 times Dagian's strength, I am saying that on average, they are ALL significantly weaker than the average Aes Sedai, who is about twice Dagian's strength.

So the calculation that makes Nynaeve 8 times as strong as Dagian is an extremely conservative one using this logic.
</quote>

No that would make all of these women probably stronger than Siuan is now, and that's very unlikely.

<quote>We have to take a step back at this point to remember that all we are doing here is to try and compare Nynaeve's strength to that of the 6 women who shielded Logain. Looking at the number of women who shielded Semirhage is irrelevant, because RJ has stated that it is much more difficult to shield someone of the opposite sex, than it is to shield someone of the same gender.

So we want to compare apples with apples here. 5 women conservatively estimated to each be 1.5 times Dagian's strength would have struggled to shield Logain, just like Nynaeve was barely able to shield him. So based on this comparisn, Nynaeve's strength would appear to be comparative to that of these 5 women.

Making her at least 8 times stronger than Daigian, 4 times stronger than the average Aes Sedai, and almost 3 times stronger than Moiraine. Even if Egwene is then close to twice as strong as Moiraine, this would make Nynaeve approximately 50% stronger than Egwene, which has been my contention all along.</quote>

Firstly, Nynaeve could not hold the shield on Logain so she is clearly not as strong as the 6 combined that did hold the shield

Secondly you have claimed that Daigian is a 10 in strength (which I think is conservative, but I'll use it for this purpose).  5 women at 1.5x her would be 75 and should have been able to hold any man.  But 5 women who are 1.2x Daigian (total of 60) would not have been able to hold him but add in a 6th at that level and he's contained by the combined 72 ... certainly there will be variations here (linking benefits, shielding Talents etc), but when you compare to Rand (where the same variables exist) ... the 4 women holding him were likely much closer to 2x Daigian, so an 80 combined, but once they lost that extra 20 he shattered a 60 shield.

<quote>This would fit the bonfire candle quote.</quote>

Nothing really supports that quote except Moiraine's hyperbole ... face it that quote has never been literal and wasn't meant to be.  If it was Nynaeve would be 10,000x Egwene and we all know that's not the case.

<quote>It would fit Aviendha's reference to Egwene being able to overwhelm Amys and Melaine combined.

It would fit with the fact that Dagian is half as strong as the average sister and a third as strong as Moiraine.</quote>

No one is contesting these things, it's a matter of the scale we use, not the facts from the book, it's clear that Egwene is approximately 2x Sheriam (Amys+Melaine) and that Moiraine is about 3x Daigian.  The question has always been where do the Forsaken level women fit on that Scale ... I say 2x Moiraine you think more than that.

<quote>And it would fit with Nynaeve being able to duplicate the shielding effect of 5 linked sisters on Logain. Bearing in mind that there are benefits to a linked shield which makes it even HARDER to break than that of a single individual shielder.

It really does fit the evidence perfectly.</quote>

We have no idea if Nynaeve's shield was able to duplicate the effect of those 5 women.  Logain put no effort into it and Nynaeve herself noted that it was a very slow build that bent her shield with no real effort then wondered what would happen if he put any effort into it!  All we are told about the shielding effect later is that 6 women could hold the shield, but that if it had been 5 he could have broken free ... no idea if that would have been easy or if that would have been a struggle for Logain.

What we can see from the book is that Nynaeve's shield really had no chance of holding Logain if he had chosen to break it.
</quote>

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