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Way off Lohikaarme Send a noteboard - 23/12/2010 12:03:03 PM
I wasn't saying that Joline et al. has any formal power over Mat, just that they are women of power. To argue that Mat has a right to boss the Aes Sedai around as he wishes must be a right you give to Mat because you like him. If it had been Egeanin that provided the money and she therefore bossed Mat around like he did the Aes Sedai, you would hate her and call her unreasonable, I'm sure. Mat is a supremely lucky 20-year-old with memories that make him a tactical genius, and money he has mostly won on gambling. That doesn't mean he should just boss around a bunch of highly experienced 100+ year-olds. Reason with them, yes, and discuss with them, but he attempts no such thing. He just walks right over them and gets annoyed by their few attempts to aid and get information for themselves, even if he refuses to reason with them in any lengthy, respectful discussion. We see all the Aes Sedai in Mat's company mostly through his lenses, and some from Tuon -- not exactly fair witnesses. Neither of them ever gives the Aes Sedai any chance to behave as anything other than children.
I judge people by their actions, rather than age. What we've seen so far is the Aes Sedai getting into trouble and Mat helping them out of it. As we've seen from the actions of various Aes Sedai and comparing them to others age clearly does not bring wisdom. Few Aes Sedai are reasonable.

He has a healthy dose of dislike for nobles in general, but he has a amiable relationship to men of power, among them officers like Guybon and a Prince like Beslan, and -- I'm sure -- others throughout the series without actually having the time to check for them now. His treatment of Egwene was not exactly respectful, and she was being bullied by yet more, in his view, powerful women that he could vex by bowing to her. In private he was severely disrespectful to her.
But thats because they don't treat him like crap.
(Niin metsä vastaa kuin sinne huudetaan.)

Tylin -- I thought when she was introduced -- was the female Mat. She was, I thought, supposed to teach Mat -- by doing the same to him -- that he was disrespectful to women by just thinking of them as items with "bosoms" and "bottoms." I learnt as I kept reading, however, that such was not the case and her narrative importance seems to be as a pretty sex-partner for Mat that he had to avenge, like the knight in shining armor that only he can be. She is not an exception to Mat's demeaning attitude towards women, she is more like Mat as a woman. And Mat -- of course -- took no notice to the lesson he should have learned. I guess I mistakenly assumed Jordan wrote something more progressive than I should have. At least readers can take that lesson if observant, even if it might be unintended.

Ok, you changed your mind later but to make something clear: Mat never goes after women who make it clear they don't want him.

Of course, there is one exception to this pattern, namely Birgitte. But I imagine that is due to the particular nature of Birgitte, and her awe-inspiring and "manly" nature, not due to any growth in Mat's character. She is -- like Tylin, only not as directly to Mat in particular -- a bit like a female Mat.
See my response to the thing aboit nobles. He likes Birgiette because she likes him.

And I am not claiming he is misogynist because he has no female friends. He just doesn't respect women.
Wrong. He doesn't respect women who don't respect him. Which turns out to be most Aes Sedai, Nyn and Elayne early on, Egwene...

Well, he would still probably be a better king than spoiled and erratic Elayne would be queen in an actual feudal setting. And my point is just that Elayne has no reason to believe she would be the best and rightful queen of Cairhien other than her own arrogance.
Damn right. Perrin should be King of the Westlands.
Stuck in Finnland!
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Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM 1987 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:26:52 AM 1095 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:44:47 AM 1080 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:15:12 AM 996 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 06:40:09 AM 1037 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 01:50:51 PM 905 Views
It's more that Mat doesn't like to be bossed around by ANYONE - 09/12/2010 03:28:53 PM 770 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:36:51 PM 1087 Views
Mat respects the women who give him a reason to respect them - 09/12/2010 06:48:53 PM 917 Views
Tylin raped Mat. *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:23:00 PM 1152 Views
Way off - 23/12/2010 12:03:03 PM 839 Views
Er... why should she go to such effort for Galad? - 09/12/2010 03:20:31 PM 986 Views
Pretty much. - 10/12/2010 09:59:07 PM 968 Views
Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM 1127 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:26:04 AM 879 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:27:06 AM 935 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 08:15:02 AM 1523 Views
Well - 09/12/2010 06:10:23 AM 925 Views
hrmm - 09/12/2010 07:52:08 AM 906 Views
Elayne rantage - 09/12/2010 11:46:29 AM 895 Views
*raises hand* - 09/12/2010 09:41:47 PM 849 Views
Hm, I don't think so... - 09/12/2010 10:47:38 PM 898 Views
Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth - 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM 898 Views
Besides - 09/12/2010 03:40:06 PM 832 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:42:47 PM 939 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 22/12/2010 07:01:17 AM 1121 Views
Excellent post - 22/12/2010 04:29:38 PM 760 Views
Hear, hear. *NM* - 23/12/2010 03:02:57 AM 387 Views
Just want to agree with you re: Egwene/Elayne. - 22/12/2010 03:40:39 PM 994 Views

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