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Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part The_Archer Send a noteboard - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
I do agree with the others that Moghedien is a good jump below Nynaeve though ... it's been said in the books (TPoD) that Nynaeve had yet to reach her full strength ... which means months after her battle with Moghedien (when they were equal) she was still getting stronger. It's also possible that Mesaana is equal to Semirhage, but Sandersons comments has me putting a little distance between them.

End of the day for me I think all the Forsaken are pretty damn close in Power ... even Moghedien thinks she has a shot at becoming Nae'bliss which is indicative that she is in the same general range of the others, even if she's the weakest.

If Moggy is weaker than Nyneave - I think its only slightly - almost negligble.

However i agree that on the super power level - it makes little or no difference of raw strength. I also agree Moggy could probabaly be Nae'bliss. You must remember Moggy's defeats are not due to her lack in power or relative weakness compared to the other forsaken - but her defeats are down to her personal traits. She lacks bravery, she lacks perseverance (in fight) and is weaker willed. She is a coward who prefers the easier option. However also please note that the only time Nyneave actually defeated her was in Tanchio - the other times Nyneave was lucky - and saved by sheer fluke at the last minute.

back to strength - If - lets say - even if Graendal/Semi/Messy were on Moggy's level of strength - I doubt the other forsaken would have been so dismissive of them - Granny would have still challenged Sammeal and Lanfear (and tried to bait Messy - like she did in one meeting - where she alluded to Messys desire to be a scholar)- and the forasken she would have challenged would have been weary - because Granny is pyschologically stronger than Moggy - and same with Messy and Semi.

Moggy is just pyschologically weak - even an average Aes sedai is pyschologically stronger than Moggy- Siuan sanche would fry Moggy if she was on Egwene's level or Cadusune's level of strength - however the raw power balance between Moggy and normal Aes Sedai is so unequal - that Moggy would just overwhelm them.

Finally remember how Moggy dealt with Liandrin - she was weak and wounded yet dismissed her in seconds - although Liandrin mounted a surprise attack.

Moggy was confident enough to appear and challenge six or however many they were - black ajah sisters. If you remember she offered them all to test their strength against her! She cowered them all.
Liandrin knew how strong Nyneave was - even though she hadn't reached her potential - Liandrin would have known how strong Nyneave could potentially be - as women can sense the potential strength and would have made a mental note of comparison between Nyneave and MOGGY and told the others how Moggy was less than Nyneave?

I put the Choden kal users at the Strong level (Moiraine, Lelaine, Siaune, Elaida, Romanda)

Meilyn/Karene at the very strong

cadusane at exceptionally strong - strongest of the weakest.

Bode at super strong - the weakest of the super strong.

Elayne/Avi/Eggy at the super strong

Moggy onwards at freaky strong!!! Simply beacuse Egwene seems to believe the forsaken can easily overwhelm her. From the way Granny and the other forsaken carry themselves - it seems she cares not how strong someone is - as she is stong enough not to be overwhelmed. for that matter you may recall Asmo challenges lanfear and is livid at her - and certainly does not act scared of her. Also in one of the aerlier bookes Asmo and and another male forsaken have a huge bust up in the world of dreams - but both shut up when Ishy turns up. i think its in book 2.

Its only Moggy who acts a little cautious infront of the other forsaken - but actually - even she is not cowered by their strength completley - when she meets Moridin - she can see he has use of the True power (so obviously he can channel - and if the Great Lord is bestowing his favours on him - Moggy would know he was a strong channler)and is still arrogant towards him until he pulls out her mindtrap. She is also dismissive of Cyndane - and is not duly concerned abt her superior strength.




It's clear IMO that Moghedien is of incredibly rare strength, which is probably one of the reasons why she is so jealous of women who are stronger ... but it's also clear that she is the weakest of the Forsaken ... it's stated many times that her tactics are sneak attack to "bring down more powerful foes". Part of that is her personality being a coward, but it's also very smart on her part. Nynaeve IMO is about 10% Stronger than Moghedien who in turn is about 10% above Egwene.

As to Semirhage, it's also something Sanderson notes, he claims to be "unsure" of where she sits, but then also makes this observaton about Nynaeve's strength:

only 6 people are stronger than Nynaeve. It’s such a rare event that pretty much anytime we meet someone stronger than her, it’s explicitly said.

Since it's not stated that Semirhage is stronger when she's right there for comparison, it seems obvious that she is weaker, if only a little. But as I've said, at the very top I think it's much more about skill than raw strength anyway. Just as you point out Moghedien was able to defeat Nynaeve ... she's more skilled.

IMO Moghedien never really had a shot at becoming NB, unless she managed to kill off each of the others in some hidden way there is no way she would have been able to control them.

I'm not particularly surprised by Mesaana being noted as one of the weaker FS... the text actually gives us clues throughout.

Graendal being dismissive, Mesaana herself having to rationalize being uncomfortable around Semirhage, her hiding her strength at all times from Alivarin (who had met Graendal and Lanfear). It all adds up to a woman who is weaker than her counterparts. Sanderson just came out and said it for us.


I agree with you - but Messy is probably just above moggy and just below Semi - but again one of the freaky strong - though weaker relatively in Forsaken circles.

In regards to nae'bliss i meant Moggy is strong enough in power to be nae'bliss - but wont ever become it - becuase she hasn't the balls to fight the other forsaken.

The dark One only chooses the strongest - to be his chosen - and not just strong in mind - but in raw strength!!! For example if Alvirian was ever made a chosen - the others would laugh her out of the meeting. She is too weak even to rebuke them or threaten them. Even Moggy could take 3/4 Alivarian on without breaking sweat!!

I can assure everyone Moggy is not dismissed by the others. Granny actualy is more weary of Moggy after her attack on Cyndane and Moggy.

Finally as for Mesaana - she may be weaker than Semi just by a negligble point - however - Egwene is overwhelmed at Mesaana power..... you know the qoute.."Light, but that woman was strong". When Messy first shows up in battle!!

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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3113 Views
Yes. - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1449 Views
No. - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1299 Views
Indeed! *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 718 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1232 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1442 Views
Three things: - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1232 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1144 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1240 Views
Agreed. - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1327 Views
not really - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1227 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1178 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 770 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1208 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1115 Views
Re: not really - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1136 Views
Angreal have buffers - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1145 Views
none of them are very strong - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1135 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 989 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1280 Views
Exactly - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1316 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1171 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1136 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 958 Views
where is that quote my friend? - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1026 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 958 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1084 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1102 Views
Don't be absurd... - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1113 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1058 Views
Nonsense... - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1101 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1214 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1209 Views
And yet... - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1133 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1364 Views
Here are te quotes... - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1136 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1166 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 956 Views
Oh nonsense - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1059 Views
But that's his point. - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1069 Views
its a useless point - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1152 Views
Yes, utterly useless... - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1114 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1054 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1068 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1122 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1012 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1080 Views
What? - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1107 Views
Re: What? - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1108 Views
Oh boohoo... - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1132 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 979 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1098 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1184 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1129 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1111 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 557 Views
Re: Yes. - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1119 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1234 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1175 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 874 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 972 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1063 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1117 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1051 Views
that's the point I'm making - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 923 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1082 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1260 Views
nope - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1195 Views
Mesaana - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 960 Views
agreed - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1032 Views
Re: agreed - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 901 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 968 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1136 Views
yes and no - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1104 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1145 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1006 Views
"clear evidence" - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1080 Views
Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1099 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1120 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1064 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 750 Views
couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1095 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1022 Views
that's what I said! EDIT - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 909 Views
Well... - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1122 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 967 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 990 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1003 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1109 Views
I agree with that completely. - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1038 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1109 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1004 Views
Dude... - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 985 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1060 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1067 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1011 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1079 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1017 Views
And she doesn't know any details... - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1025 Views
this conversation is so pointless - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 878 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 900 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 920 Views
Of course its obvious now! - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1114 Views
Shielding - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2476 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1064 Views
There is, actually... - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 967 Views
Meh - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1062 Views
Well... - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1096 Views
Re: Well... - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1067 Views
Tell Darius that... - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 991 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1201 Views
You forget... - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1123 Views
astounding "evidence" - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1115 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1128 Views
thanks - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1261 Views
Re: thanks - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 962 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 954 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1062 Views
I don't get the logic here... - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1108 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 816 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1065 Views
And...? - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1070 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 973 Views
That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1017 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1169 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1137 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1009 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 655 Views
And... - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1031 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1032 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1045 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1078 Views
Yes, I did know that. - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1061 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1123 Views
Oops. *NM* - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 712 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 979 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1061 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1134 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1118 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1095 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1260 Views
Help im new! - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1124 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1219 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1025 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 730 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1009 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1013 Views
you misread the topic - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1137 Views
But the debate is moronic because... - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 990 Views

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