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Re: Laughable interpretation... moratcorlm Send a noteboard - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM
The fact that Aviendha knows so little about One Power mechanics at this point in time - including linking advantages, linking losses etc - PROVES that all she could have been referring to with that comment was raw strength.
Your interpretation that it means "combined" as opposed to – as she says – "together" relies on her thinking of something like linking, where, irrespective of loss, the "combination" has access to the combined raw power of both. In this interpretation, (A+M)<E.

What she actually says, "Amys and Melaine together", is not represented by (A+M) vs. E, but rather by (A vs. E)+(M vs. E), an altogether different dynamic.

Consider, for instance, that Moghedien defeated both Nynaeve and Elayne in Tanchico (who “combined” well exceed her strength). Liandrin and Rianna defeated Nynaeve in Tear, and Amico and Joiya defeated Elayne and Egwene, in both cases the less powerful victorious. And Mylen is able to hold shields on Teslyn, Joline, and Edesina simultaneously (KOD36), though “combined” they certainly exceed her in strength, as Berowin is able to hold the far stronger Nynaeve (ACOS23). More? Nynaeve can hold a shield on the equally powerful Moghedien, or later Talaan, but she could not defeat either of them by simply slamming the shield down; she had to, like the weaker victors above, create a tactical advantage by distracting them in some way first.

Now, here's where your problem is. We know (ACOS21) that Nynaeve (you say 80) is not strong enough to shield Elayne (50) when she is holding saidar. So how can a 50 (Egwene) overpower the “combined” "raw strength" of two women – average, and above average for Aes Sedai, but let’s say they’re both halfway between Daigian and Moiraine, at (you say) 20 apiece, “combining” for a "raw strength" of 40? Your position is not logically compatible with the text.

What this then must mean is that Egwene does not simply shield them with "raw strength", but defeats them using tactics to create a situation where her advantage can overcome one, and then the other. However well-coordinated, Amys and Melaine are each individually at a disadvantage compared to Egwene; two one-pound axeheads cannot chop at the tree of Egwene’s defenses as effectively as one two-pound axehead.

Once the understanding that Aviendha’s theoretical battle refers to (A vs. E)+(M vs. E) has been reached, you can comprehend that the posited victory does not mean much more than that Egwene is more powerful than either of them. Which we already knew.
All you're basically saying is that you do not accept that statement by Aviendha, because it does not fit with your picture of how the strength ladder should look.
I am saying precisely that, if the statement means what you take it to mean. There are many contradictory statements. You cherry-picked this one because it is the only one which fits your picture of how the "strength ladder" should look.
Provisional calendar for Towers of Midnight: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExSFE&output=html
This message last edited by moratcorlm on 10/12/2010 at 03:42:37 PM
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More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM 3113 Views
Yes. - 09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM 1449 Views
No. - 09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM 1298 Views
Indeed! *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:39:47 PM 718 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me - 09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM 1232 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease. - 09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM 1442 Views
Three things: - 09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM 1232 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal... - 10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM 1144 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue? - 09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM 1240 Views
Agreed. - 20/12/2010 01:17:32 AM 1327 Views
not really - 09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM 1227 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong - 09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM 1177 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM 770 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power - 09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM 1208 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though - 09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM 1114 Views
Re: not really - 09/12/2010 05:16:02 PM 1136 Views
Angreal have buffers - 09/12/2010 05:38:45 PM 1145 Views
none of them are very strong - 09/12/2010 05:38:49 PM 1135 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM 989 Views
Re: We never really get a feel for their relative strengths - 09/12/2010 10:00:23 PM 1280 Views
Exactly - 10/12/2010 09:36:52 AM 1316 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength... - 09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM 1171 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength - 09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM 1136 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal... - 09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM 958 Views
where is that quote my friend? - 09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM 1026 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm - 09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM 958 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne - 09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM 1084 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means... - 09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM 1102 Views
Don't be absurd... - 09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM 1113 Views
Yes, but does BS know that? - 09/12/2010 09:26:10 PM 1058 Views
Nonsense... - 09/12/2010 09:45:17 PM 1101 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian - 09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM 1214 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..." - 09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM 1209 Views
And yet... - 09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM 1133 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle... - 09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM 1364 Views
Here are te quotes... - 09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM 1136 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana? - 09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM 1166 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine! - 10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM 956 Views
Oh nonsense - 10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM 1058 Views
But that's his point. - 10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM 1069 Views
its a useless point - 10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM 1150 Views
Yes, utterly useless... - 10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM 1113 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books... - 10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM 1054 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM 1068 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true - 11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM 1122 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM 1012 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there... - 10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM 1080 Views
What? - 10/12/2010 11:19:57 PM 1107 Views
Re: What? - 11/12/2010 07:20:19 AM 1108 Views
Oh boohoo... - 11/12/2010 07:55:58 PM 1132 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM 979 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding. - 10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM 1098 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years - 10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM 1184 Views
Think about the logic of what you're proposing... - 10/12/2010 02:39:56 PM 1127 Views
It's what's in the friggin books! - 10/12/2010 03:33:08 PM 1111 Views
Duplicate post - deleted *NM* - 09/12/2010 08:19:05 PM 557 Views
Re: Yes. - 09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM 1119 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM 1232 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak - 09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM 1175 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM 874 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM 971 Views
Nope... - 09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM 1063 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM 1117 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW - 11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM 1050 Views
that's the point I'm making - 12/12/2010 12:58:38 AM 923 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced - 12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM 1082 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say - 10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM 1260 Views
nope - 10/12/2010 02:05:00 PM 1195 Views
Mesaana - 10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM 960 Views
agreed - 10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM 1032 Views
Re: agreed - 10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM 901 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM 968 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother - 11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM 1136 Views
yes and no - 11/12/2010 03:47:28 PM 1104 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap... - 10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM 1145 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels. - 10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM 1006 Views
"clear evidence" - 10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM 1080 Views
Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM 1099 Views
Re: Laughable interpretation... - 10/12/2010 03:34:01 PM 1120 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM 1064 Views
Doesn't the forkroot explain that? *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:47:53 PM 750 Views
couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM 1095 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here - 10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM 1022 Views
that's what I said! EDIT - 11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM 909 Views
Well... - 11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM 1122 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield - 11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM 966 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well - 11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM 990 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM 1003 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells - 12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM 1109 Views
I agree with that completely. - 12/12/2010 01:03:54 AM 1038 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like? - 12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM 1109 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT - 12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM 1004 Views
Dude... - 12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM 985 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower! - 12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM 1060 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question... - 13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM 1066 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot - 13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM 1011 Views
She knows but she doesn't know? - 13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM 1079 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability - 13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM 1017 Views
And she doesn't know any details... - 13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM 1025 Views
this conversation is so pointless - 13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM 877 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM 900 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary. - 14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM 920 Views
Of course its obvious now! - 14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM 1114 Views
Shielding - 13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM 2476 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO - 13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM 1063 Views
There is, actually... - 13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM 967 Views
Meh - 14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM 1062 Views
Well... - 14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM 1096 Views
Re: Well... - 14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM 1067 Views
Tell Darius that... - 14/12/2010 12:47:19 PM 991 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength... - 11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM 1201 Views
You forget... - 11/12/2010 08:02:03 PM 1123 Views
astounding "evidence" - 10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM 1115 Views
Re: astounding "evidence" - 11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM 1128 Views
thanks - 11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM 1261 Views
Re: thanks - 12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM 962 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM 954 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part - 12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM 1061 Views
I don't get the logic here... - 09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM 1108 Views
which was one of my first thoughts in reading the scene! *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:43:54 PM 816 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve - 09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM 1065 Views
And...? - 09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM 1070 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies. - 09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM 973 Views
That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM 1017 Views
Re: That was my interpretation too - 10/12/2010 09:31:12 AM 1169 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM 1137 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline - 10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM 1009 Views
*Double post, please delete* *NM* - 10/12/2010 04:35:54 PM 655 Views
And... - 10/12/2010 04:32:28 PM 1031 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM 1031 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene - 10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM 1045 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed - 10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM 1077 Views
Yes, I did know that. - 11/12/2010 04:06:00 PM 1061 Views
meant that response to go to Sidious ... sorry! - 11/12/2010 08:44:40 PM 1123 Views
Oops. *NM* - 10/12/2010 07:15:57 PM 712 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM 979 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM 1060 Views
We have very little to go on with the FS strengths... - 10/12/2010 09:04:33 PM 1134 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM 1118 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 10/12/2010 10:50:20 PM 1094 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken - 11/12/2010 07:29:30 AM 1260 Views
Help im new! - 13/12/2010 07:41:04 PM 1124 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 09:56:45 PM 1219 Views
Re: More evidence you haven't been paying attention. - 13/12/2010 10:50:25 PM 1025 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM 730 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? - 18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM 1009 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken. - 19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM 1013 Views
you misread the topic - 19/12/2010 05:30:26 AM 1136 Views
But the debate is moronic because... - 19/12/2010 05:43:07 AM 990 Views

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