13 women of 10 strength would not be strong enough to easily overcome Rand who would be stronger than Lanfear who you have as a 100, on this scale Rand must me at least a 125 meaning he may well be stronger than 13 linked Daigians. Since not 100% of a woman's strength can be used in a circle it would be a close struggle with a man such as Rand and we know from Asmodean that 13 women of even weak strength could do it and the "13 weakest in the Tower" would manhandle him like a child.
Daigian is much more likely to be 13-15 with Moiraine maybe as high as 45 and Elayne could be from a 75-80 based on the same quotes you are basing your arguments on. If you look at all of the FS level women in the 90-100 range this all makes sense ... Elayne would need a 25% uptick in strength to match Nynaeve (significant when you consider it's probably more raw strength than Daigian has). If Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha were that much weaker than the FS we would have seen instances where they could not accomplish tasks that only the FS level seem capable of.
Daigian is much more likely to be 13-15 with Moiraine maybe as high as 45 and Elayne could be from a 75-80 based on the same quotes you are basing your arguments on. If you look at all of the FS level women in the 90-100 range this all makes sense ... Elayne would need a 25% uptick in strength to match Nynaeve (significant when you consider it's probably more raw strength than Daigian has). If Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha were that much weaker than the FS we would have seen instances where they could not accomplish tasks that only the FS level seem capable of.
Egwene says she has no chance against Moghedien. That means you have to AT LEAST add a full Dagian on top of Egwene to get to Moghedien's level. At least, else the outcome would not be beyond a doubt as Egwene stated it was.
That means if Egwene is at 75, which is the LOWEST level you put her at, then Moghedien has to be at around 85-90.
Nynaeve exactly matches Moghedien in the Shadow Rising at a time when Nynaeve is FAR from her full potential. Considering that women increase gradually in strength, and that Nynaeve has never been forced like Ewgene was, Nynaeve would under normal circumstances continue increasing in strength for many years after this point.
And as late as Book 8, Nynaeve STILL states that she has not yet reached her full potential. In fact, even now we have not yet been definitively told that Nynaeve is at her full strength, although we ASSUME as much after the Cleansing.
It is therefore highly likely that Nynaeve, in Book 4 had another 20-30% of growth ahead of her before she reached her full strength. And yet she already matched Moghedien in strength.
Therefore, to get to Nynaeve's full potential you would probably have to add AT LEAST 20-25% to Moghedien's 90. That means that Nynaeve is already sitting at about 110.
Now consider that Alivia is CONSIDERABLY stronger than Nynaeve, and you get to what, 120? 130? And then Lanfear is conceivably even stronger than that. So it is clear that your placement of Egwene is way too high in this context.
AS for Dagian and the Linking story, there are many factors at play here. Too many to use it to discount the clear evidence from all the other quotes.
Asmodean says 13 women who can barely channel can overwhelm most men, linked. Not all men.
He says the 13 weakest women in the Tower could overwhelm Rand and barely breathe hard.
Well, you have to ask the obvious question: Who does Asmodean consider a woman who can barely channel? I would argue that he would place Dagian in that category - if he knew her strength. Rahvin says the Aes Sedai he Compels in FoH isn't strong enough to be let outside without a keeper.
How would Asmodean know the strength of the average Aes Sedai in the Third Age Tower? He hasn't spent any time amongst them. In fact, he's been hiding in some hole since he's been released from the Bore, according to Lanfear. Keeping a low profile.
By his standards, 13 Dagian's might well be the "13 women who can barely channel", and who can overwhelm MOST men, linked. Not all men.
Also, the precision and other benefits of the link - as evidenced by the massive gateways 13 women can make - something like 20 times larger than Rand can make, for example - makes it very difficult to use this as a direct strength comparison.
It certainly isn't enough to disprove the rest of the comparative strength picture that has consistently been presented by the books.
Egwene never says she has no chance against Moghedien. She says Mogs could kill her before she or anyone in camp even knew what was happening ... Egwene also says she can face and defeat Mesaana.
I think the comparative picture has shifted throughout the series. Note that now Graendal is strong enough to shield a FS level male channeler, another woman and hold open a gateway simultaneously... this is a clear indication that RJ at some point backed off his earlier assertion that men were much stronger, as back in LOC Rhavin assumed he could overwhelm Graendal or Lanfear, which is clearly not the case. Moiraine is certain Egwene and Aviendha (who were not yet at full potential) could overwhelm one of the female forsaken ... Nynaeve could not shield Elayne at one point, but later can shield Talaan who is even stronger ...
If Egwene/Elayne are 80 MOghedien could be a 90 with still plenty of room for the more powerful Forsaken levels. There is no reason Nynaeve needs to be less than a 94 which would be Egwene+Daigian, if Mesaana is a 92 that's in the range that Egwene could face and defeat. Egwene and Aviendha could have been an average 65 at the time Moiraine made her comment and linked would have been more than the equal of any FS female.
We had further evidence in TOM from Mat actually. He notes how AS never lift things more than a few inches off the ground. Compare to Egwene lifting 3 women 4 paces into the air! The evidence is all over the series that the "Wonder Girls" are just a step lower than the Forsaken and FAR above regular AS ... in fact we know that they are about 2x the strongest sisters (Cadsuane aside), but there is no evidence that Nynaeve is 3x Moiraine, if she was that strong there would have been no issue with her shielding Elayne. I'd say she's probably is 3x someone like Nesune (the level of women below Sheriam, let's say 32) where Egwene is more like 2.5x that level.
I have to run now, and this argument continues to go in the same circles anyway
So many fallacies here. Let's take one of the more obvious ones.
You're saying that Egwene is 80 and Moghedien is 90 and Nynaeve is 94.
Therefore you're saying that Nynaeve was only 5% below her full potential when she had her first encounter with Moghedien back in tSR?
Amazing. I guess this idea that women grow gradually in strength unless forced is complete hogwash, then.
More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
09/12/2010 03:45:27 PM
- 3113 Views
Yes.
09/12/2010 04:39:58 PM
- 1449 Views
No.
09/12/2010 05:34:57 PM
- 1300 Views
Actually...exponential or at least non-linear makes alot of sense to me
09/12/2010 06:27:29 PM
- 1232 Views
Nope. Then Rand would be able to crush 13 Aes Sedai with ease.
09/12/2010 06:32:53 PM
- 1442 Views
Three things:
09/12/2010 06:47:30 PM
- 1234 Views
That quote is incorrect as it contradicts all other evidence from later books...
09/12/2010 06:51:02 PM
- 1208 Views
If strength isn't linear and on a steep enough curve that could work.
09/12/2010 07:22:24 PM
- 1232 Views
I think that RJ's statement that the strongest man and strongest women were equal...
10/12/2010 03:23:12 PM
- 1146 Views
I wasn't aware this was an issue?
09/12/2010 04:45:02 PM
- 1241 Views
I just hope aMoL finally reveals who's going to be the Dragon Reborn...these lesser debates can hang *NM*
09/12/2010 05:26:37 PM
- 789 Views
not really
09/12/2010 04:46:42 PM
- 1228 Views
and you'll note that none of the angreal are considered particularly strong
09/12/2010 04:48:14 PM
- 1179 Views
She probably weaved them separately on account of being pregnant *NM*
09/12/2010 04:56:12 PM
- 770 Views
Pregnancy seems to be interfere with her ability to grasp the power
09/12/2010 05:06:15 PM
- 1210 Views
I don't know if it's a more complex CHANNELING undertaking, though
09/12/2010 05:42:57 PM
- 1116 Views
I don't have the book handy, but she talks about the level of complexity
09/12/2010 05:45:52 PM
- 1230 Views
hmm, but we still don't know if it's the weaves or the process that is so complex
09/12/2010 06:28:14 PM
- 1021 Views
Well according to Monaella it makes it harder to Channel, but from Elayne's POV
09/12/2010 06:52:55 PM
- 1137 Views
We never really get a feel for their relative strengths
09/12/2010 05:51:38 PM
- 989 Views
Yes. In PoD Aviendha states that the woman-wrapped-in-hair angreal almost doubles her strength...
09/12/2010 06:30:41 PM
- 1172 Views
you have the wrong angreal and the wrong strength
09/12/2010 07:07:18 PM
- 1138 Views
Nope. You are the one whose got the wrong angreal...
09/12/2010 07:15:38 PM
- 958 Views
where is that quote my friend?
09/12/2010 08:07:50 PM
- 1027 Views
PoD: The Breaking Storm
09/12/2010 08:16:58 PM
- 960 Views
Ah yes, ... "almost 2x as much" still doesn't support your assertion that Nyn is 50% above Elayne
09/12/2010 08:20:37 PM
- 1085 Views
That's a gross skewing of what that sentence means...
09/12/2010 09:05:05 PM
- 1103 Views
Don't be absurd...
09/12/2010 09:21:00 PM
- 1113 Views
she does not say that! she says Moghedien could kill her before she could react. so could Daigian
09/12/2010 09:34:50 PM
- 1216 Views
"The only Aes Sedai who could hope to match one of the Forsaken was in Ebou Dar..."
09/12/2010 09:44:25 PM
- 1211 Views
And yet...
09/12/2010 09:48:34 PM
- 1135 Views
No, Egwene does NOT think she can defeat Mesaana in a One Power battle...
09/12/2010 09:59:35 PM
- 1366 Views
Here are te quotes...
09/12/2010 10:10:09 PM
- 1137 Views
Did you not read the quote above, made by Egwene in the heat of battle with Mesaana?
09/12/2010 10:34:05 PM
- 1166 Views
It might interest you to know that that was Katerine!
10/12/2010 12:15:51 AM
- 957 Views
Oh nonsense
10/12/2010 04:43:44 AM
- 1060 Views
But that's his point.
10/12/2010 06:01:59 AM
- 1069 Views
its a useless point
10/12/2010 10:11:00 AM
- 1152 Views
Yes, utterly useless...
10/12/2010 11:46:15 AM
- 1114 Views
Dude, you need to re-read the books...
10/12/2010 04:15:11 PM
- 1054 Views
he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
10/12/2010 08:19:16 PM
- 1068 Views
Re: he means Sheriam, but your points still hold true
11/12/2010 07:21:49 AM
- 1122 Views
potentially, but Mesaana later turns up with BA using the 19 stolen ter'angreal.
11/12/2010 03:41:41 PM
- 1034 Views
I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:11:56 PM
- 1014 Views
Re: I'm so glad you're a mod! Setting great standards there...
10/12/2010 04:35:23 PM
- 1082 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:17 AM
- 980 Views
Duh! Seriously, are you Elaida or something? Your logic is astounding.
10/12/2010 06:47:18 AM
- 1098 Views
which only tells us that Nynaeve is equal to the Forsaken. Has nothing to do with Egwene being
10/12/2010 01:51:12 PM
- 949 Views
Nynaeve has been channeling (albeit blocked) for close to 10 years
10/12/2010 02:24:57 PM
- 1186 Views
Re: Yes.
09/12/2010 07:49:12 PM
- 1119 Views
You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
09/12/2010 08:03:51 PM
- 1234 Views
where this falls apart is that Daigian at a 10 is too weak
09/12/2010 08:16:17 PM
- 1177 Views
Nope...
09/12/2010 08:44:51 PM
- 876 Views
now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
09/12/2010 09:29:20 PM
- 972 Views
Nope...
09/12/2010 09:42:58 PM
- 1065 Views
all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 08:04:02 PM
- 1119 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
11/12/2010 11:59:55 PM
- 1052 Views
I don't think Elayne was forced
12/12/2010 04:33:26 PM
- 1082 Views
I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:43:29 PM
- 861 Views
Re: I believe there is a quote from RJ that states they all were, but Egwene was held damane
12/12/2010 04:46:50 PM
- 1102 Views
Thanks for the quote
12/12/2010 07:17:30 PM
- 1163 Views
perhaps the opportunity hasn't arisen? And of course it's politic to appologize to the Amyrlin
12/12/2010 07:41:11 PM
- 1062 Views
Re: all of the girls were Forced! Nynaeve was already at least as strong as Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:04:21 PM
- 1090 Views
that's where I'm estimating Nynaeve being close to Siuan and Moiraine in EoTW
12/12/2010 08:30:54 PM
- 1066 Views
Re: now you are just force fitting quotes into what you want to say
10/12/2010 01:17:10 AM
- 1262 Views
Mesaana
10/12/2010 04:43:07 AM
- 962 Views
agreed
10/12/2010 01:48:59 PM
- 1032 Views
Re: agreed
10/12/2010 04:38:28 PM
- 902 Views
very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
10/12/2010 05:03:43 PM
- 969 Views
Re: very true, and I find it interesting that during the TAR battle Mesaana didn't bother
11/12/2010 07:22:54 AM
- 1136 Views
Re: You're obviously a latecomer to this ongoing debate. Here's a recap...
10/12/2010 09:19:17 AM
- 1145 Views
OK. Here's the clear evidence of Dagian's, Moiraine's, Egwenes and Moghedien's comparative levels.
10/12/2010 12:00:48 PM
- 1008 Views
"clear evidence"
10/12/2010 01:27:01 PM
- 1082 Views
Laughable interpretation...
10/12/2010 01:31:57 PM
- 1100 Views
Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
10/12/2010 04:27:30 PM
- 1066 Views
couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 08:01:44 PM
- 1097 Views
Re: couple of thoughts here
10/12/2010 11:27:19 PM
- 1023 Views
that's what I said! EDIT
11/12/2010 04:03:59 PM
- 911 Views
Well...
11/12/2010 07:58:38 PM
- 1123 Views
Katerine is a pain in the ass and Silviana wasn't about to risk only one woman holding that shield
11/12/2010 08:26:29 PM
- 968 Views
Leane was shielded by two sisters as well
11/12/2010 11:14:08 PM
- 992 Views
I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
11/12/2010 11:22:12 PM
- 1005 Views
Re: I think that's almost certainly a custom for women held in the open cells
12/12/2010 12:04:33 AM
- 1111 Views
Oh... so we dismiss all quotes from people we don't like?
12/12/2010 05:18:42 AM
- 1111 Views
re-read the section my friend. EDIT
12/12/2010 03:58:28 PM
- 1006 Views
Dude...
12/12/2010 06:29:43 PM
- 987 Views
did you read the quote? They discuss how much they gave her on the way to the Tower!
12/12/2010 07:39:55 PM
- 1062 Views
Not one of those things answers my rather simple question...
13/12/2010 02:27:44 AM
- 1067 Views
because it's the first time Egwene has been dosed with Forkroot
13/12/2010 03:55:18 AM
- 1013 Views
She knows but she doesn't know?
13/12/2010 05:35:55 AM
- 1080 Views
She knows that Nynaeve had told her it dampened her ability
13/12/2010 05:13:23 PM
- 1018 Views
And she doesn't know any details...
13/12/2010 07:19:12 PM
- 1026 Views
this conversation is so pointless
13/12/2010 10:43:35 PM
- 879 Views
Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
13/12/2010 11:24:24 PM
- 901 Views
Re: Yes. But since you continue to not answer the main question, necessary.
14/12/2010 11:06:55 AM
- 922 Views
Of course its obvious now!
14/12/2010 12:44:59 PM
- 1114 Views
it was always obvious that to me. The first thing Egwene thinks is about what the drug does to her
18/12/2010 05:07:38 AM
- 962 Views
Shielding
13/12/2010 08:01:19 PM
- 2478 Views
Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
13/12/2010 10:50:09 PM
- 1065 Views
Re: Practice. We do know that AS practice their weaves far more than WO
14/12/2010 04:25:20 AM
- 1184 Views
There is, actually...
13/12/2010 11:28:42 PM
- 968 Views
Meh
14/12/2010 04:22:45 AM
- 1064 Views
Well...
14/12/2010 04:37:50 AM
- 1097 Views
Re: Well...
14/12/2010 10:52:55 AM
- 1067 Views
of course Katerine is redundant! 2 women of Barasine and Katerine's strength
18/12/2010 05:00:50 AM
- 968 Views
Re: Amys is clearly stronger than half Egwene's strength...
11/12/2010 07:31:25 AM
- 1203 Views
um, Elayne was in the process of bleeding to death and then had just been Healed
11/12/2010 03:50:27 PM
- 1098 Views
astounding "evidence"
10/12/2010 09:58:47 PM
- 1117 Views
Re: astounding "evidence"
11/12/2010 09:15:03 AM
- 1128 Views
thanks
11/12/2010 03:54:54 PM
- 1261 Views
Re: thanks
12/12/2010 12:49:52 PM
- 964 Views
We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 04:23:02 PM
- 955 Views
Re: We're not in disagreement for the most part
12/12/2010 05:00:02 PM
- 1062 Views
Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 05:13:46 PM
- 1078 Views
Re: Actually in the AoL all AS who went over (50%) were refered to as Forsaken
12/12/2010 06:35:02 PM
- 1055 Views
All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 07:50:59 PM
- 1048 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:05:58 PM
- 1111 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:11:29 PM
- 1018 Views
Re: All of the AS who went over to the DO refered to themselves as the Chosen
12/12/2010 11:14:47 PM
- 1079 Views
I don't get the logic here...
09/12/2010 09:41:18 PM
- 1109 Views
It doubles her strength. Nynaeve is only 50% stronger. So she only needs half of it to match Nynaeve
09/12/2010 09:46:42 PM
- 1066 Views
And...?
09/12/2010 09:51:57 PM
- 1070 Views
Personally, I thought it had something to do with not harming the babies.
09/12/2010 10:01:10 PM
- 975 Views
That was my interpretation too
10/12/2010 04:36:38 AM
- 1018 Views
what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:12:34 PM
- 1138 Views
The oaths proposal is after the jailhouse break in the timeline
10/12/2010 04:31:12 PM
- 1009 Views
You are correct! So clearly worry about the babies was not a reason to not draw more
10/12/2010 05:05:30 PM
- 1004 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 04:41:25 PM
- 1033 Views
Re: what books are you reading? she's absolutely convinced until that scene
10/12/2010 05:02:10 PM
- 1046 Views
and as a poster above points out the scene is AFTER she's stabbed
10/12/2010 05:07:17 PM
- 1078 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:22:21 PM
- 979 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 08:33:25 PM
- 1062 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:12:12 PM
- 946 Views
they can actually sense both which is how Elayne knows Nynaeve is not at full potential
10/12/2010 09:22:35 PM
- 1101 Views
Re: More evidence that Elayne is much weaker than the Forsaken
10/12/2010 09:31:13 PM
- 1118 Views
Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:08:16 PM
- 1010 Views
Re: Please note that Nynaeve has commented every time she's been around
10/12/2010 10:50:32 PM
- 1124 Views
It's more than just fear of Moridin that makes her choose an attack from such a distance
10/12/2010 11:10:57 PM
- 992 Views
How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least? *NM*
18/12/2010 02:53:22 PM
- 730 Views
Re: How is it that this the longest thread on this board? Is it even relevant in the least?
18/12/2010 08:21:24 PM
- 1009 Views
Look at the topic. As if we needed evidence that Elayne is weaker than the Foresaken.
19/12/2010 04:41:25 AM
- 1013 Views