Yes, and that has always irked at me a bit. Elayne, as a noble, actually and undeniably got everything on a silver platter. That is where the metaphor comes from, after all. Egwene is an inn-keepers daughter, something slightly like a middle class in the rural society, but at least not nobility. She has gone through trials both in her escape from the two rivers and in the later progress of the books (some of the least were also shared with Elayne, though she mysteriously and with the exception of the forkroot-incident, and possibly Tanchicho, was never in any real danger and got to treat it all as a fun adventure), at the hands of the Seanchan, in her Aiel training and in her encounter with Lanfear and the super-angreal. Also she has had a lot of challenges in the World of Dreams, and in her political dealings with the Salidar Aes Sedai, and in her captivity in the Tower. And with Mesaana and the Black Ajah. In the arc of the story told in the WoT-books, Egwene has certainly not gotten anything on a silver platter, except maybe the initial Salidar raising. That has been rather poorly explained, but at least -- if not thought about in detail -- attempted explained.
But I see some of your... complaints... about her too. But the problem is really not with Egwene's intended and actual role in the actual story told in the books, but the sheer incredibility of it. If the story is really as the Egwene-favorable POVs, including her own, has portrait them, and as I believe Jordan and Sanderson have intended them, then she is absolutely something close to the only reasonable leader among the Aes Sedai. If one looks at the implications of such a framework, however, and interprets all kinds of nasty implications in some small segments of Egwene's POVs, then I can understand it. But to treat Elayne with such reverence, and Egwene with such loathing... well, that is just unreasonable...
But I see some of your... complaints... about her too. But the problem is really not with Egwene's intended and actual role in the actual story told in the books, but the sheer incredibility of it. If the story is really as the Egwene-favorable POVs, including her own, has portrait them, and as I believe Jordan and Sanderson have intended them, then she is absolutely something close to the only reasonable leader among the Aes Sedai. If one looks at the implications of such a framework, however, and interprets all kinds of nasty implications in some small segments of Egwene's POVs, then I can understand it. But to treat Elayne with such reverence, and Egwene with such loathing... well, that is just unreasonable...
No, fluke of birth is fluke of birth. You say Elayne has what she has because she was born to a Queen? Egwene has what she has because she was born with the ability to channel. And because she was born to the same village as the Dragon Reborn. You say Elayne got to treat it all like an adventure? That's exactly how Egwene treated it, and the reason she left the Two Rivers in the first place. You say Elayne was never in any danger? Both Elaida and the Shadow gave explicit orders that she be kept alive. She was made Aes Sedai because of a fluke of birth, she was trained in Dreaming by the Wise Ones because she randomly bumped into one in Tel'aran'rhiod, she was raised Amyrlin because she was close to the Dragon Reborn and considered manipulable, she had the Salidar Six enslaved because Siuan told her they had a secret, she got power over the Hall because of an obscure law gave her dictatorial powers which was passed thanks to the support of the Shadow, and barring the general incompetence of every Aes Sedai she 'argued' with in the White Tower, she was allowed to live despite her treason by Elaida and then her rival was removed and her enemies weakened enough to come crawling to her thanks to the Seanchan.
The misogynistic behaviour of Mat I have explained in detail in the discussion with Icarium above. On account of Rand, the demeaning way he treats women is mostly his overprotectiveness and image of women as particularly weak, despite all evidence to the contrary. Even female channelers and trained warriors he demeans, even though both are stronger and more capable of protecting themselves than most men. And even if he comes from a world and a country that even in the rural areas he comes from has strong women who compete for power. His monarch, and most noble high seats are women, and even his experience with Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha and the Maidens and Mairaine does not make him see them as more capable, only as victims and potential victims.
With Mat, you seem to have combined the general griping along sexual lines that pervades the entire series with Mat's hatred for authority figures and come up with misogyny. I don't see it, but even if I did, I'd understand it - the poor guy was raped by Tylin. I'd expect misogyny, and yet I don't see it. Frankly, I find that somewhat disgusting.
With Rand, that's a social norm in the world. Women may have authority, but anywhere you go, you will see that it is men who die for women. The Two Rivers and Shienar are some of the more blatant examples, but Warders is probably the physical incarnation of it. I have no idea how you come away with this as misogyny, however. As far as I can see, it is clearly misandry. I don't know how you can take the opinion that male lives are worth less than female lives and come out of it thinking it is hurtful to women.
Well, my objection here is not to the actual situation: in the arc of the story, this is portrait as natural and good. Almost necessary. But I object to Jordans reasoning behind the move -- that such a big man deserves at least that, since he himself had to girlfriends at one point. Well, it is not really important, but I think it is a bit unnecessary to write that into the story.
It's not that such a big man needs three wives, I think, it's that a man who endures so much suffering needs this much comfort. It's also because it parallels the three wives of King Arthur, and also the female trinity of goddesses - the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone.
By the way, do you think it okay for women to have multiple boyfriends as well? If so, cudos, even if I disagree with both assessments.
Hah! I see that you misunderstood my anecdote
. The notion that I would date several girls simultaneously is pretty hilarious, given that I am completely antisocial and have little sex drive. In fact, I am likely an inversion of most male stereotypes regarding relationships. But no, I see my one girlfriend seldom enough, I have no idea what I would do with a second. Which was actually the point - she clearly wishes she would see me more frequently, and while I do make some sacrifices, I thought she might actually be happier if she was also seeing someone else.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM
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Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:26:52 AM
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Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 04:44:47 AM
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Re: Serious ramblings about WOT
- 09/12/2010 05:15:12 AM
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Very interesting.
- 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM
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Re: Very interesting.
- 09/12/2010 07:27:06 AM
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Re: Very interesting.
- 09/12/2010 08:15:02 AM
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Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth
- 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM
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Oh, and a note on Sanderson: I think his WoT stuff isn't as good as his original works
- 09/12/2010 03:34:27 PM
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Re: Oh, and a note on Sanderson: I think his WoT stuff isn't as good as his original works
- 09/12/2010 03:47:37 PM
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Hm... I'm not sure if "simpler" is the right word for Sanderson's magic systems
- 09/12/2010 04:40:30 PM
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