I have no doubt at all that RJ laid out the idea of Graendal being discovered and escaping
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/12/2010 07:07:14 PM
An author consistently uses the same narrative voice, plot devices and style of writing for 11 books. SUDDENLY, when a new author takes over, major players start acting out of character, performing actions they never would have earlier, and scenes pop up that don't fit the storyline nearly as well. The Graendal scene is one such as those. Aran'gar acted like a Novice, Graendal spoke out-of-place thoughts aloud, and the entire Graendal mystery was convoluted, out of place, and the timing was odd as well.
Do I think RJ intended to have Graendal escape an attack from Rand? Maybe to probably. Do I think BS came up with how? Probably.
There's no doubt that BS wrote the scene, and there's no doubt that he came up with the details surrounding the events. It' not all that difficult to pick out RJ's writings from BS's. It's a little harder to pick out who came up with what plot scenario--not the words, but the ideas--but it's not impossible. The Graendal scene may have been designed by RJ as a means to indicate how far into madness and despair Rand had fallen--but the way in which it was done was most definitely BS, and I did not approve. It was belittling to the readers and to the characters.
Do I think RJ intended to have Graendal escape an attack from Rand? Maybe to probably. Do I think BS came up with how? Probably.
There's no doubt that BS wrote the scene, and there's no doubt that he came up with the details surrounding the events. It' not all that difficult to pick out RJ's writings from BS's. It's a little harder to pick out who came up with what plot scenario--not the words, but the ideas--but it's not impossible. The Graendal scene may have been designed by RJ as a means to indicate how far into madness and despair Rand had fallen--but the way in which it was done was most definitely BS, and I did not approve. It was belittling to the readers and to the characters.
an attack, I also have no doubt that RJ intended Aran'gar to die in that attack. I can't believe anyone would let BSand play around with major characters in such a way. I can't see RJ not leaving notes behind on how each of the Forsaken were to meet their sticky end.
I do agree that the scene itself was obviously written by Sanderson. I imagine based off of notes like:
"Graendal tricks Aran'gar and escapes letting Aran'gar get Balefired"
I mean come on did anyone really think Aran'gar was going to survive her partnership with Graendal? It was hinted at a number of times that Graendal made several alliances and proceeded to kill off her partners during the AoL ... Aran'gar was going doomed from the start!
Had RJ written the TOM scene I imagine Graendal would have been far more subtle than slamming a shield on Aran'gar in a panicked moment. But overall I didn't find anything in the actual scene too out of the blue, several posters, myself included, had postulated for months that Graendal used Delana for the compulsion.
I just think Sanderson doesn't get Graendal ... she's gone from stupid to brilliant and from bold to terrified one too many times to fit. RJ always made her sly/crafty/cunning, highly manipulative and just dramatic enough to be amusing ... with the understanding that everything she put out up front was a false image of the real woman. BSand didn't quite master the false image piece IMO.
It's kind of the same thing that he does with Mat. Makes his POV too overt. Mat would never have thought openly about using his smile to manipulate a woman. RJ would just slip in a comment like "Mat gave her his best smile" and the understanding was that Mat was trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Or we'd hear from another character that Mat was a charmer or some such. Mat doesn't actually think of himself in these terms.
Much like Graendal under RJ never actually walked us through every though process she had going on ... she would generally just state what she had gleaned from the situation and give us hints about why. RJ would simply have had her seize the doves mind with a unique weave to the TP and observe al'Thor ... no mucking around with feeling ill and no bitching about not being able to hear properly. She would have flown in seen what she needed to and have quickly devised a plan to trick Aran'gar into staying behind. Or would have used Compulsion on Aran'gar rather than throwing a shield on her ... anyway ... I am just rambling now
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
What was the purpose of Graendal?!
25/11/2010 03:54:29 PM
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BS wanted to put her behind a "complicated" plot
25/11/2010 04:11:01 PM
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Yes, it's BSand's fault. RJ couldn't have EVER planned it all out himself right? Yes mm hmm
25/11/2010 04:19:02 PM
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read DomA's review. BullShit ruined the series. *NM*
25/11/2010 04:31:56 PM
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Links or it didn't happen.
25/11/2010 04:53:24 PM
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oh but, bookwyrm, now they have such a nice easy scapegoat!! *NM*
26/11/2010 01:35:53 AM
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And DomA is such infallible authority on the all things WoT why? *NM*
25/11/2010 06:00:42 PM
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I'd say that DomA is one of the most thoughtful posters here. He researches his comments and gives
25/11/2010 06:47:58 PM
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That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
26/11/2010 01:33:08 AM
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Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
26/11/2010 03:47:38 PM
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Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
26/11/2010 09:40:54 PM
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Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
27/11/2010 12:22:02 AM
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Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
27/11/2010 06:08:15 AM
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Re: That doesn't mean he has any actual evidence as to BS tampering with RJ's notes
27/11/2010 04:54:00 PM
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Okay, what would you have had him do?
27/11/2010 01:54:19 AM
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Interesting question.
27/11/2010 02:58:55 AM
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Re: Okay, what would you have had him do?
27/11/2010 06:02:22 PM
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clearly the timeline is wonky, but it's easy enough to keep track of
04/12/2010 05:32:34 PM
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A minor aside
26/11/2010 02:49:03 PM
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oops minor omission, i meant the last 3 books were meant to be one big tome *NM*
26/11/2010 04:40:53 PM
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because he's right on this account. This book was a trainwreck *NM*
26/11/2010 05:11:01 AM
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It's pacing and editing was bad, I see and agree on that. But the story overall was great.
27/11/2010 09:21:02 AM
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Re: Yes, it's BSand's fault. RJ couldn't have EVER planned it all out himself right? Yes mm hmm
25/11/2010 04:45:12 PM
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RJ was set on it being one book hoping he could finish it before he died *NM*
25/11/2010 05:45:07 PM
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Do you honestly think Jordan would have kept that "promise" if he were still alive? Seriously ...
27/11/2010 09:01:49 AM
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that's a pretty poor argument for showing BS as messing everything up
26/11/2010 01:29:16 AM
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Re: that's a pretty poor argument for showing BS as messing everything up
26/11/2010 10:45:51 AM
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Well
26/11/2010 03:01:46 PM
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I have no doubt at all that RJ laid out the idea of Graendal being discovered and escaping
04/12/2010 07:07:14 PM
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Lots
25/11/2010 04:38:52 PM
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Re: Lots
25/11/2010 04:53:38 PM
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What is the point of anything then?
25/11/2010 05:01:15 PM
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I don't agree with "deus ex machina style"
25/11/2010 05:58:19 PM
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Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style"
25/11/2010 06:22:31 PM
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Re: I don't agree with "deus ex machina style"
25/11/2010 06:34:57 PM
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Yes, she was useless to this storyline.
25/11/2010 11:40:57 PM
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If it hadn't been Graendal, it WOULD have been rather contrived...
26/11/2010 01:35:12 AM
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Well, we were under the impression that Moridin alone had access to the True Power.
26/11/2010 02:36:31 AM
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I was under the impression other Forsaken had access as well, something pointed out by their POVs ..
27/11/2010 09:09:17 AM
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