I've theorized the same thing a while ago. The Band of the Red Hand has met a tragic end before, in its first incarnation. They all perished in the fall of Manetheren, buying time for Eldrene to send away the citizens of the city, which she then levelled out, or so we're told (I still find it more likely this is a complete legend created by the White Tower. The Amyrlin had betrayed Manetheren, and wassecretely stilled for it at Tar Valon. That did nothing to save the massive blow, in the middle of the Trolloc Wars, that the Tower betrayed one of the most powerful force of the Light., if it became known, and rumours at least would have gotten out, stories of the AS absence. Eldrene's heroic last stand was extremely convenient... instead of Tetsuan's betrayal taking the spotlight, you got Eldrene the Aes Sedai so powerful, so selfless, so heroic that she saves the people then kills herself destroying the whole army of the Shadow in one blow... so instead of the remote AS traitor aloof in the WT, you got the Aes Sedai hero, who died among the people... I think the real story is far more likely that after destroying Aemon in the valley, the Shadow moved to the mountains, where it fought Eldrene and perhaps a few other AS in her entourage to their death, and the Dreadlords levelled the city then the whole army of the Shadow vanished through the Waygate there... and when the AS, the Ogier and the others arrived, there was nothing but devastation left.. and a legend that turned a huge hope killing defeat for the Light into a story to inspire the surviving people and their leaders to fight on and like Eldrene never give up before its over...

Anyway... the Band may indeed be a "red herring" of a sort. Actually, a good chunk of it have become Elayne's "severed hand, not hers". They went to Caihien with her, and seemingly they and she then left for Rand's meeting (though I don't think it's 100% certain Elayne has not returned to Caemlyn after claiming the Sun Throne, and planned to regroup with the Andoran forces before they all go north.... but perhaps the book said otherwise and I don't recall the details) .

I wouldn't be surprised Elayne is still in Caemlyn. Otherwise, there's an important missing element to the whole "Manetheren replay". We have her Aemon in Rand, away from home in the north when he learns the Shadow is attacking the homeland. We have the Amyrlin in Tar Valon (even with the motif that Elayne is becoming more and more powerful - it's been pointed out in TOM a few times it's as if Elayne is planning to set up her own rival Tower,,, securing the Kin, already wondering if she shouldn't claim the BT for Andor, making decisions about the future of channellers without even consulting Egwene... Egwene won't be best pleased at Elayne when she hears about any of this, and she corners Egwene as there is no way Egwene can reveal Elayne did all this without her authority, that she bonded the Kin to Andor without her approval. Elayne will probably be disappointed - she's left Egwene not much choice but to offer the same services to all the nations that recognize the White Tower's authority over channellers. Elayne really wasn't thinking straight when she got into her mind that only her nations would get this advantage over all its rivals, simply because she was the first to think of it. What Elayne's plan would accomplish is to destroy any illusion of WT political neutrality, align it with Andor-Cairhien and turn all the other nations against the Tower and look at the alternatives... there is that Empire that lets rulers rule when they swear allegiance to the Empress, and which has the strength to keep the WT at bay.

It sounds to me like Egwene has missed the fact it's Elayne, not Nynaeve, who's the real "loose cannon" of the duo... but she's soon learn about this.

Anyway... there's this conflict on power between the two, vaguely reminescent of the jealousy of Testuan for Eldrene. Of course, there's the Band, now serving her, and there's the fact Elayne is now the Rose and the Sun as dual monarch of Andor and Cairhien.

So I get the feeling she may not have left Caemlyn yet, when the attack on the city comes.

My hunch is this:

I don't know if Rand's meeting will take place or not. Oh... at some point no doubt it will, but I'm not convinced either way it will happen on the day he planned.

Many things suggests it might not, and others suggests it will. In one scenario, the meeting happens, Moiraine and Mat show up, Aviendha shows up. Rand wins or doesn't win his point. The news of the attack on Caemlyn (personally I think there's more to it... I think there are also attacks ongoing on Tear, Illian, Cairhien.. Demandred is moving to capture all Rand's bases at once) comes at the end of the meeting. Egwene is an unknown. Perhaps the Tower foolishly pulls a Fateful Concord, and has left the meeting, hoping this will delay Rand and make him rethink his decision. In this case, I guess they would bump into the Seanchan attack, returning to Tar Valon, and this eventually turns into the Seanchan/Egwene "we must help each other" alliance. I still think this might come out of facing a massive attack on Tar Valon by the Shadow together, and only together the two sides stand a chance to survive this. Rand and Mat might rush back to Andor, to deal with the BT.

The other scenario would be more chaotic. It would have Egwene and many of the rulers meet in Tar Valon before Rand's meeting to agree how to convince him, when the Seanchan attack.

It would have Elayne in Caemlyn, about to leave for Tar Valon and perhaps already in not so much in Egwene's good graces - her plans for the Kin now known, and delaying her coming to TV to show Egwene as Queen she doesn't intend to bethe puppet of TV.

It would have Perrin already north, perhaps at TV too, and thus faced with the Seanchan as well.

It would have Mat just out of Ghenjei, with Moiraine and Thom.

As for Rand, he's busy with whatever his last preparations are, perhaps joined by Aviendha, though I suspect it's Elayne she'll seek first after Rhuidean. She's a WO now, and can and intend to marry Rand soon, so she might set it up with her first sister, discuss Min's case and also the dreadful future Aviendha saw... which happens to concern Elayne's as well... and Elayne is already planning the "Seanchan War" Aviendha has seen.


At the BT, the final events would happen, the last lighsiders dealt with (and if some escape, they will then). Then Demandred strikes everywhere at once. Caemlyn, Tear, Illian and Cairhien fall. Elayne is assieged in her palace with the Band and Mat. Rand's forces are forced to fight where they are. Cadsuane's group and many Asha'man are under siege in the Stone, where Min must be protected because of her bond, and Cadsuane mustn't die before revealing where she's sent Callandor.... Perhaps Rand fights there at the beginning. Cairhien is swallowed undefended, the group of Asha'man near Illian engages the Shadow there. Elayne and Mat are under siege in the Caemlyn palace, and Egwene cannot come to help because she's under attack by the Seanchan and perhaps the Shadow. Tear falls. As Mat desparetly holds the Shadow with the Dragons and a few channelers, Queen Elayne is forced to use most of her channellers for gateways to send as many Caemlyners to safety as possible., as the city clearly is lost. Rand comes to Caemlyn, where he "dies yet lives" (whatever that will be). The Great Battle is done, the world not yet done with battle, and the world tethers on the edge of a blade, the sword of light of the prophecy. Egwene comes to Caemly at the end, with Tuon who is reunited with Mat. Rand is secured away to Nynaeve at Tar Valon, the last standing fortress of the Light, on Egwene's Skimming boat, with Min, Aviendha and Elayne. Caemlyn falls to the Shadow.


Rand's "dead", Demandred holds most of his territories, his fortresses, and has secured important Waygates and Portal Stones with which his Shadowspawn armies can move around. He has the BT and/or Caemlyn palace as his main base of operations, protected by the dreamspike. He promptly wipes out the bases of operations the Seanchan have left in the south, their supply bases, their bureaucracy. All Tuon has left is her armies, what's left of them after the battle of Tar Valon.

and the Second War of Shadow has started.

I could see things going somewhat this way for one reason: Rand's reasoning for Breaking the seals in one month is that they've waited too long already, that they let the Shadow become too powerful and wage a war of attrition, weakening the Light gradually to the point soon it will be too late and the world won't be able to face the LB. He also knows his epiphany signals a modest turn of the tide and given enough time and freedom he could undo some of the chaos. He thus knows he's on a schedule, and he must unite the world "as one" very fast, because the Shadow won't let the Light recuperate under "new Rand" for very long. Thus the breaking of the seals, to force the Shadow into the Last Battle, at Rand's time and place. Rand said one month, because he knows when he does this, he will have to strike at Shayol Ghul right after, and for now he doesn't have a plan. He suspects he will need the female channellers' support, and certainly Nynaeve and another woman (who seems to be Alivia, rather obviously).

Depending on the timing of it all, with for now is ambiguous, it appears the Shadow has anticipated Rand (of course, Mesaana among others have learned his plan as revealed publicly to Egwene). It remains to be seen if Rand has anticipated that the Shadow would anticipate him or not. Rand might have anticipated a wave of attacks during the meeting. If so, the Shadow is expecting Rand to move for SG on that day. Rand might rather have planned things to get most of his forces to the north, too powerful for the Shadow to wish to strike at them, but secretely has spread the Asha'man to counter the initial wave of attacks by Demandred.

If must say I find it most curious that Rand with all the memories of LTT isn't wondering more about Demandred. This makes me wonder if LTT doesn't per chance have kept a few aces up his sleeve and not at all forgotten Demandred, if his meeting to break the seals isn't a decoy. Oh, he would have broken the seals if the Shadow didn't react as he thought it would, but by launching TG, the Shadow has already done what Rand wished to accomplish by breaking the seals... it has committed itself to the field, with the assurance that Rand would break the seals and thus make Shai'tan all the more powerful... and admitting he has no plan to seal the Bore yet.

Rand is telling the truth: the LB had to start soon. Announcing he would break the seals and on which day exactly accomplished that. Now, what remains to be seen is if Rand truly intends to break the seals, or if he was tired of letting the Shadow direct the timetable, afraid the Shadow would wait to weaken the Light even more before the LB, and he's lured Demandred and Moridin into launching the LB on the day he wished, and committing their forces to the field and in the open... but having no real intent to do them the favour of breaking the seals and making their master all the more powerful. Rand's real intent might be to lure the Shadow into the open, see exactly what he faces, and have his generals weaken the Shadow some more, perhaps attempt to get rid of the remaining Chosen, before he breaks the seals and strikes at SG. If the Shadow didn't take the bait, he had little choice and had to break the seals. Since it appears the Shadow took the bait, I'm no longer sure the time is good to break the seals, with the Shadow ready for this and expecting Rand's strike.

Beside baiting the Shadow to strike, what Rand would have accomplished is to openly give one month to the Light to mobilize, and his meeting in the North would let him have all his generals and forces in one place, ready to mount a coordinated and surprise reply to the Demandred's initial wave of attacks. He would have Demandred spread out, on the defensive, and facing an unexpected coordinated campaign.... and without the expected boost in power from the breaking of the seals. The last big advantage would be that no one but Rand knows of his real intentions, so unless they anticipate him, Rand would be able to surprise the Shadow without having to cleanse each and every spy on the Forsaken among his troops. If some are fools enough to follow to the meeting, and what he's done to Weiramon was a move to precisely convince the Shadow to remove all the moles it didn't care to waste, then these spies will be all but useless, their reports on the meeting coming too late to be of any use.








I think Mat might indeed lose enough of the Band to be unable to even delude himself that his role is to lead them in the LB, and to sound the Horn. There's much more to it than that, as Mat will discover.

I think the survivors (incl. those around Elayne now) will be his "personal army", like the original Band was to Aemon. Mat's "Guard".

I never had any doubt that Mat would be the military commander of the Light in TG. I never anticipated Rand's epiphany to come so early (I expected it to come when he returned from the "dead", with TG already started) but what Rand has become is no surprise. In many discussions in the past years, I have described something almost exactly like 'new Rand" as my vision of what he should become to fight TG, and so far what he's now blaming himself for were all on my list of Rand's errors. It's one of the (fairly few) instances in which my theories were really dead on the money. I thought before his epiphany, Rand was not in the least a proper champion for a being like the Creator. Rand's real role was always to be an herald of the battle, and to accomplish that it was his role to increase the chaos and force the Shadow into the open, but down the line his main mission was to inspire people to find their own reasons to want the world to survive, and understand it was all their Last Battle, not his alone. This is the man Rand has now become. The time for his last role, that is face Shai'tan at SG, is coming, but now that there's no denial by any but madmen that the LB is upon the world, Rand's role is to inspire and give hope, and part of it, it appears to me, is to accomplish this by being the power of the Creator made manifest. "New Rand" is walking the earth as the flesh and blood proof that the Creator has not abandoned Creation. Rand himself is his divine intervention into the upcoming battle. Whether this makes Rand some sort of avatar, whether some of the Creator's will is impressed in him in a fashion similar to what Shai'tan has done with Shaidar Haran is debatable. My hunch still tells me that the Creator is the One Power, that the One Power is the thread with which reality is woven (as well as being the driving force behind the Wheel) and therefore if everything is the OP, then the Pattern and everything in it, including all souls, are small parts of the Creator.



It could, but my feeling is that the black faction at the Black Tower will turn out to be only a small fraction of the army of the Shadow, and I'm not sure Logain's mini-army is enough to make a great enough difference if Taim's forces get involve at Caemlyn, and I fully expect they will. Taim too has mixed gender circles, and probably much better training. Not much of what Logain learned from Rand in KOD would be effective to fight Shadowspawn in a city like Caemlyn. It's the whole horror of it. The Shadowspawn in the city, killing or capturing the people, the dragons useless, and the weaves of mass destruction useless - as they would kill a massive amount of people caught in the battle, and what's the point of defending the city if you can't save/protect the people in it? The Stones of Caemlyn are quite worthless if the Caemlyners dies. Cities can be rebuilt, humans can't. The OP would be much better used then to gateway out as many people as possible. It will be much easier to attack the Shadow and destroy it at Caemlyn once there's only Shadowspawn and dreadlords inside the walls.



I think the BT is a permanent goner, for myself. It was a bad idea in the first place.

I think Logain's glory will come from being the first male Aes Sedai of the Age. He won't lead the BT, he will put an end to it. I think this is what Egwene's dream of it is about: the pretense that the BT is Rand's creation will be dispelled (that's the paper Rand) and Logain will destroy the BT and his men will return to the group to which they rightly belong: the Aes Sedai. By doing that, the Guardians will bring balance to the Servants, who lacks it now because their male half is missing.

Even Tel'aran'rhiod anticipates the moment. Egwene's rose window in the Hall already has the full Aes Sedai symbol in TAR. Egwene has not realized she's seen the future in TAR. She's mentionned this should be possible before but didn't know how, and now she's seen such a vision and didn't recognize it for what it was. The Wheel is pulling hard to bring the AS back together,I think this is also Rand's own intent, and this outcome is already reflected in TAR.

I'm rather convinced Rand's "terms" he intends to discuss with Egwene in a month, along bringing up the bonding of sisters as she wants, include asking her to welcome back the male Aes Sedai. Rand has already mentionned his regrets about the Asha'man, the wrongness at the BT, to have told them they were weapons aimed at the Shadow and nothing else etc. They belong with their sisters. The two groups barely met that they started bonding each other silly. I think "new Rand" knows exactly where the Wheel is going with this, and why all his efforts to keep Asha'man and Aes Sedai as far away as possible from each other have all spectacularly failed. One of the strengths of Rand now is that he doesn't fight what must be anymore. On the contrary, he goes with the current, let the Wheel use him to pull the whole weaving in the right direction.





I agree if Mat is in Caemlyn Rand would quite possibly learn of the battle through him. Between Pevara/Androl, Mat, possibly Elayne or Aviendha, Kinswomen who can Travel, Windfinders etc. there's just too many possibilities to be sure. The core of the Light's leaders will learn of the battle(s) before it's over. The opposite would be surprising, unless it's all over really fast. It looks ugly, I must say. The Shadowspawn are in the city already, the people are all around and the city is bursting at the seams. A great deal of armies are around the city, not inside and between them and the Shadowspawn is the recently expanding Low Caemlyn. More narrow streets and more people (and wooden shanties... the Shadow just has to light fire to Low Caemlyn to keep the armies at bay a while...) Taim's out there a few leagues away, with mix gender circles. If he starts attacking the armies of mercenaries and those of the nobles... It will get ugly, there's little doubt.

One point: I don't think Rand cares so much for "support". If his plans are what the Wheel wills and needs, then Rand will have his way. Announcing his intent to Egwene was the "right path" of action, and the no one in the Hall of the Tower could open her mouth to interfere in this conversation between Rand and Egwene. Only these two had free will, everybody else was silenced by the powerful web of destiny. Egwene's opposition has a greater purpose, or she would have been silenced the same way.

The bottom line remains: Rand has the seals and he can break them, he stands a fair chance to gain the support of at least one group of female channellers in the lot and one of his purposes when announcing his plan to Egwene was to have her help spreading the word that the Light has a month to mobilize.

Another point is that Egwene's so-called opposition to Rand is actually just an opposition to his decision to break the seals, and so far all her efforts to oppose Rand are focussed on finding allies to convince him he is wrong, no more. She's not trying to divide the world between those who will stand behind the WT and those who fill follow the Dragon. Rand's serious when he says this is not his battle. He wants the leaders to step up and start leading the Light, not wait for him to do it for them.

So I don't think Rand needs Mat's support for this meeting. Not that I expect Mat to be among those enthusiastic about the early breaking of the seals. He will see the logic in provoking the battle, I think, but not necessarily any wisdom in announcing the intent in advance, or giving your enemy more strength. Rand's reasoning to start the LB now makes sense, but so does Egwene's reasoning that making the Shadow even stronger before Rand even has a plan to seal the Bore is pretty sound as well...

Elayne appears undecided at best, and Nynaeve leans even more toward Rand. I think Egwene jumped to conclusions regarding the WO too. I can see them needing more talks between them and with Rand before making up their minds if Rand's right or wrong, but I think Egwene mistook their alarm for a commitment to see things like her... We haven't heard from the Asha'man yet, and Cadsuane's group, that is now integrally part of Rand's inner circle, is also so far silent. The ways things looks, it seems to me Rand probably already has the core of support he needs, and it's more a matter of having all the forces of the Light in one spot where he'll convince them he's right. .. if his real intent is to break the seals that day, of which I'm really not convinced just yet.




If the attack comes before the meeting, Perrin might find himself at TV. If it comes during the meeting, I think Perrin and Mat will be sent to take the lead in different location. It makes sense for Perrin to join Egwene. Their "powers" bring them together, and Tylee will no doubt play a role in the battle. There's also the second Paendrag heir with Perrin - with as much right to claim Hawkwing's inheritance as Tuon - except Berelain and Mayene have never attempted it, and Berelain can still have a role to play in the final resolution of the conflict.





Mat also has to go to Tar Valon, and Moiraine wants to go to Rand and the Fields is where Rand will soon be. So it's not so likely Mat is planning to go to Caemlyn, unless as I said he drops Moiraine with Perrin, goes to the Tower to retrieve the Horn and arranges for the Band to be brought to the Fields.




I don't think Rand knows all that much of the new developments, but he's got a kind of epiphany about the Seanchan while in Ebou Dar, and then it enraged him even more and he nearly balefired the palace. Post-DM, his epiphany that the Seanchan stand for order no doubt remains, but his intent to let them rot probably doesn't. He needs them, and he's not likely to consider that leaving virtually half the Light out of it all, where they can backstab the other half to boot, is a good idea. He must also see now that trying to enforce a truce until his death is a terrible idea. Cadsuane foresaw the problem right away. With this, Rand was preparing a new War of Hundred Years, and risked alienating his allies. The other problem is that for the Seanchan, the Return has to be completed before the Last Battle, it's part of their prophecies. It's part of the reasons why Tuon feels cornered and now throws all her armies at Tar Valon. Bring down Tar Valon, and the end of the Return is in sight.

I think Rand really has to let the Wheel fix this up, contenting himself with serving it as ta'veren on this. If a post TG world war is to be averted, it's not a truce which is needed, it's a more permanent resolution that will see the Seanchan and the channellers stop being enemies. He also sees himself as Aes Sedai again, Servant of All. What's admitting he also serves the Crystal Throne to a Servant of All?

We kind of know this will happen, as 5-10 years after TG, Mat and Tuon go back to Seanchan to re-conquer the Empire. Obviously, this means the Empress isn't caught in a massive war of conquest in the Westlands by then. This could mean Tuon wins, but it's unlikely. Egwene now has with her the Seanchan and AS who will reveal to her that the Seanchan Empress and all sul'dam can channel. More, Teslyn has brought her the sul'dam to prove it. The killing of Renna by Mat all makes sense now... the Pattern wasn't about to bring to Egwene the one Seanchan woman she hates above all.... Renna had to disappear from that group.

So, Egwene now has the mean to destroy Tuon and her Empire - throw her forces into chaos when they realize the woman sending them to destroy the WT is no different from the damane as are all sul'dam, and Tuon has the mean to destroy the White Tower. We have on one side Tuon who believes channellers must be enslaved to serve the Throne which she sees as serving everyone (as Tuon sees herself as the Empire's first servant), and Egwene who still doesn't see what being a Servant of All fully means (Elayne's getting there.. she's the first AS in a long, long time to be responsible for the welfare of a people, and she sees more and more the OP as a mean to make better lives for the people.. with services, with ter'angreal etc.). A possible important detail is the fact Tuon's aware of the existence of the bound Oaths. The Oaths are a reasonable compromise between the a'dam and letting channellers do whatever they want, even though Tuon is still a far cry from seeing things that way.

It's very difficult to see how the conflict could turn around very soon, before or during or right after Rand's meeting, but Egwene's dream implies rather strongly somehow during the LB it will get resolved. I really doubt Tuon would return to Seanchan with leashed damane. My feeling is that she would rather return with a much larger force of sul'dam trained to channel, and freely serving in her armies, while a great deal of her damane might opt to remain in the Westlands as their enslavement is something few of them would ever forgive the Empire, even if the a'dam is abolished.




Except Egwene knew none of this. Well, Siuan and co. could have told her Cadsuane is headstrong and usually have her way, but even if she didn't dare order those sisters to return with Nynaeve to the Tower, it's still a bit odd that Egwene has not made contact with the sisters who stand the best chance to be able to infliuence Rand... Nynaeve even told her Rand was in "Cadsuane's hands" and she didn't like leaving with only her. There's also the fact Siuan has told Egwene of her strong suspicion that Cadsuane is BA. Unless Verin left a note about sisters she was sure were not BA to Egwene, it's hard to understand why Egwene is leaving Rand's AS entourage completely alone. If some are BA, especially Cadsuane (in Egwene's eyes - we know she isn't), they're some of the most dangerous BA, so close to Rand. If Egwene had played it right, she wouldn't have left much choice to Cadsuane to answer her summons. Not coming amounted to refusing to come prove you were not BA.



That makes more sense. That, and not giving Rand the impression that she's plotting against him. Rand seemed to expect Egwene to recall the sisters with him, though. He sure said so about Nynaeve.

Of course, perhaps Egwene has sent an envoy to Cadsuane and we just don't know about it yet...

I guess, given that so far no sister has spoken in favour of Rand's plan for the seals and all seem to believe making Shai'tan more powerful is a huge mistake, Egwene expects the sisters with Rand hold the same opinion and are already working to convince him he's wrong... but it's still a bit weird she has not contemplated the possibility that if Cadsuane is his advisor, and Siuan suspects her to be Black, then it might be the BA who's pushing Rand to break the seals, and it's rather important to make sure the sisters he listens to aren't BA... The worst is that there's barely any chance Verin has not spotted Elza and Fera, whom she both compelled, as BA, and these two are known by the Tower to be with Rand. Perhaps Verin left them out on purpose, preferring to leave that information to Rand alone.


This has already started. Shai'tan has made a Myrddraal his eyes, his lips... in Hand. Now, Graendal suggested in TOM he's taking over Moridin as well. He already speaks directly in his mind. If this prophecy is literal, it sounds like the Great Lord is soon to take over all his servants to an extent. When he so wishes, he'll speak, act, see through them.



Shai'tan is already Sightblinder, Lighteater, Great Lord of the Dark... Lord of the Evening seems right up the same alley. The evening sees the death of the Sun, and the coming of the Dark. The DO's powers are greater at Twilight.

I think there's too much capitalized Him and His following mention of the Lord of the Evening in the prophecy for this to be referring to anything but Shai'tan. Shaidar Haran is barely a separate entity, and if that refers to him then it's pretty much the same as Shai'tan, but the coming of the Great Lord's Hand has already happened. The mention that "only Him we will praise" clinches it for me. There's no way this can't be referring to the Great Lord himself.



It's quite possible Shai'tan's powers over Moridin increases, and the prophecy actually implies the power of Shai'tan over all his servants will be astounding, but doesn't justify Moridin and Shai'tan being fused in the prophecy. Also, if the Lord of the Evening is Moridin invested by Shai'tan, then the Lod of the Evening is Shai'tan... Moridin is merely a vessel/conduit.



Well, he did in a way. Before, he claimed the title as his own, but these were the honorific of Lews Therin and no titles for the Dragon Reborn. it's only on DM Rand "owned" LTT for real. (Incidentally, Lord of the Morning/Prince of Dawn appears to me to be the meaning of Thelamon, simply enough. A more literal translation could be Rising Sun).

He has not yet become truly the "Lord of the Morning, thematically speaking. He won't be, before twice dawns the day. When he defeats Shai'tan and bring the world a new dawn, then he will have lived up to this honorific in truth. Right now, the night has not even fallen.