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I don't think that was the first time was saw a mental battlefield, it was just more subtle. Joel Send a noteboard - 23/11/2010 11:37:15 PM

Allow me to continue my analysis/rant of the TAR battles involving these two Forsaken. To a lesser extent, I think one can include Lanfear too.

If you look at it from a distance, Mesaana is a much greater dreamwalker than either Moghedien/Lanfear.

You will notice that Mesaana brings a mental battlefield into TAR for the first time, and Egwene starts to realize this as she's fighting her. On the other hand, Moghedien only uses physical means to fight in TAR, making her a massively inferior dreamwalker.

Moghedien creates false scenarios that try to snare Egwene, and she uses the Power in TAR to weave things and bind Nynaeve despite this being demonstrably weaker than most other techniques in this world. She openly spies on Nynaeve and the other Forsaken and hides like normal person, whereas even Bair can make herself look like a wall and blend in with her scenarios. While Moghedien can do impressive feats like easily cut away Nynaeve's shields or push Birgitte out of TAR, she relies on saidar to do so. She rarely, if ever, lets her thoughts stray to mental abilities, except perhaps when she threatens to make Nynaeve into a frog or pony in TAR.

Mesaana, on the other hand, doesn't even deign to enter into physical combat. She instantly enforces her will on Egwene that leaves her with a headache and almost gets her. If Egwene had been a lesser dreamwalker, it would have been game over.

The obvious reason is that none of this was thought of in the earlier books, and that BS introduced a new aspect of TAR that we haven't really explored. However, for the time being, I think Mesaana has been shown to be the greatest of the Forsaken dreamwalkers considering she uses the most logical tactic to overwhelm an opponent, which appears to work instantly.

The real difference between what Mesaana did and the examples the others have referenced is that Egwene, despite knowing the strong psychological nature of Tel'aran'rhiod, didn't REALIZE until almost too late that she was under attack. Similar to when Rahvin tries to change Rand into a beast that can't channel and Rand almost takes too long to figure out what's happening; that nearly succeeded because Rand didn't know it was possible, but Egwene would have recognized the trick immediately. Mesaana used a much less noticeable technique, so Egwenes first alert that something was amiss was approaching the precipice of total defeat. We've seen that the other Forsaken who confronted people there were fully aware and capable of using purely mental attacks, and Ishamael makes whole fortresses with his mind alone. Mesaana just took it to the next level.

Or did she...? I wonder quite a bit of channeling in T'a'r augments mental techniques, or perhaps they augment each other. Even in the waking world will is required to direct the flows, but just as a dog will twitch his paws, sometimes move his legs, when dreaming of a dead sprint chasing something, channeling, walking, talking etc. in T'a'r is primarily a mental exercise. I wonder if there's a true separation there, or if, say, an arrow made of Fire is more difficult to avoid or simply "unmake" than one made of simple wood, since one confronts not only the will of its maker, but the flows they used to create it. It makes a certain amount of sense, otherwise instead of weaving a shield around an opposing channeler you could just imagine the shield existing and it would. That would put the matter in a very different light, with the other Forsaken, those generally considered masters of Tel'aran'rhiod, knowing all the mental techniques will be that much more effective if aided by the One Power, while Mesaana thinks, far more simplistically, It's a purely mental world where channeling is possible, so I can use the One Power, but since the mind trumps all there, I shouldn't.
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Mesaana vs Moghedien in TAR - 22/11/2010 03:48:43 PM 1588 Views
Re: Mesaana vs Moghedien in TAR - 22/11/2010 05:22:00 PM 1228 Views
I think T'A'R properties were further developed later in the series - 22/11/2010 05:58:40 PM 697 Views
Re: I think T'A'R properties were further developed later in the series - 22/11/2010 06:24:43 PM 664 Views
Agreed, still my favorite scene. - 23/11/2010 11:13:50 PM 513 Views
Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien, so they're not dead even. - 22/11/2010 06:55:56 PM 884 Views
It may simply come down to the fact that Moghedien uses T'A'R for different purposes - 22/11/2010 07:01:51 PM 639 Views
I agree with Sidious - 22/11/2010 09:15:59 PM 627 Views
But, if you look at the scene, Mesaana didn't really do anything. - 22/11/2010 10:18:14 PM 688 Views
I agree with part of what you are saying - 22/11/2010 11:02:34 PM 654 Views
Moghedian never fought. She won all her "fights" in one shot. - 22/11/2010 10:57:08 PM 838 Views
Re: Mesaana vs Moghedien in TAR - 23/11/2010 12:28:46 AM 972 Views
Re: Mesaana vs Moghedien in TAR - 23/11/2010 02:56:41 AM 544 Views
I don't think that was the first time was saw a mental battlefield, it was just more subtle. - 23/11/2010 11:37:15 PM 1144 Views

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