A fair compromise; you accept Caddy and I repudiate Eggy.
Joel Send a noteboard - 23/11/2010 11:00:28 PM
It appears I was wrong about Cadsuane. I still don't like her and find her character to be overblown and annoying (after barely choking down more of Egwene's pompous dialogue and seeing how everything yet again always goes her way, I'll never call Cadsuane a Mary Sue again), but unless she changes courses in aMoL, I was wrong about her intentions with Rand.
She's still a jerk with an enormous ego and is nasty to characters I like. I still despise her for her attitude toward men, in general, and Asha'man in particular. However, judging by her "grudging" pride over how Rand changed she didn't mean to completely control him. That she let him deal with the Borderlanders his way - even when she thought he took it a step far when he threatened to leave them out of Tarmon Gai'don - without interfering said a lot. That she did not question him when he said he would break the seals and, instead, simply wondered if they were ready for it, made my jaw drop.
She has no intention of stopping him because she trusts him; that much was clear. What's more, she intends to help him. That's a hell of a lot more than can be said about a certain snot-nosed Amyrlin who thinks she craps gold coins and poppies and that the Dragon Reborn should serve HER wishes instead of think for himself.
I used to balk at the idea that Nynaeve was a newer version of Cadsuane in the making, mainly because I thought Cadsuane was a controlling old hag who wanted control of Rand and had no intention of actually working with him (an older version of Egwene, really). Now, I think I may have been wrong. Cadsuane, as I said, is a jerk, but she isn't as horrible as I once believed. Were she truly an older version of Egwene, she'd have been trying to force Rand to her will as soon as he returned. Instead, she has shown him support. She isn't arguing with him, isn't trying to undermine him, and is perfectly willing to let him proceed as he sees fit provided she is at his side in case he needs advice. Despite her still thinking of him as a boy, there really isn't anything to hate about that, and at least she has finally ceased smacking him around, which was the main thing that had me convinced she was trying to break him so he'd obey her.
What I'm getting at is that Nynaeve does have some things in common with her - she is rebellious, strong-willed, and has her own (Nyn's are correct) ideas about what an Aes Sedai should be. Cadsuane has apparently, in the past, shown some compassion for male channelers she captured (not so much with Rand or Logain or any of the male channelers now, which is another reason I still don't really like her). Nynaeve has far more compassion, though, and a much better heart. She is loyal to those she cares for (something I can't really say of Cadsuane because I think the Tower culled the ability to truly care for another person out of almost all of its initiates, much like Nyn pointed out to Egwene) and isn't bogged down in political games. She has no desire to be bogged down in them, either. Because of the similarities, I can sort of see why people would claim Nyn will become another Cadsuane. However, I think Nynaeve will be a much better version of what Cadsuane was aiming for...provided she can get the hell away from Egwene as soon as possible.
She's still a jerk with an enormous ego and is nasty to characters I like. I still despise her for her attitude toward men, in general, and Asha'man in particular. However, judging by her "grudging" pride over how Rand changed she didn't mean to completely control him. That she let him deal with the Borderlanders his way - even when she thought he took it a step far when he threatened to leave them out of Tarmon Gai'don - without interfering said a lot. That she did not question him when he said he would break the seals and, instead, simply wondered if they were ready for it, made my jaw drop.
She has no intention of stopping him because she trusts him; that much was clear. What's more, she intends to help him. That's a hell of a lot more than can be said about a certain snot-nosed Amyrlin who thinks she craps gold coins and poppies and that the Dragon Reborn should serve HER wishes instead of think for himself.
I used to balk at the idea that Nynaeve was a newer version of Cadsuane in the making, mainly because I thought Cadsuane was a controlling old hag who wanted control of Rand and had no intention of actually working with him (an older version of Egwene, really). Now, I think I may have been wrong. Cadsuane, as I said, is a jerk, but she isn't as horrible as I once believed. Were she truly an older version of Egwene, she'd have been trying to force Rand to her will as soon as he returned. Instead, she has shown him support. She isn't arguing with him, isn't trying to undermine him, and is perfectly willing to let him proceed as he sees fit provided she is at his side in case he needs advice. Despite her still thinking of him as a boy, there really isn't anything to hate about that, and at least she has finally ceased smacking him around, which was the main thing that had me convinced she was trying to break him so he'd obey her.
What I'm getting at is that Nynaeve does have some things in common with her - she is rebellious, strong-willed, and has her own (Nyn's are correct) ideas about what an Aes Sedai should be. Cadsuane has apparently, in the past, shown some compassion for male channelers she captured (not so much with Rand or Logain or any of the male channelers now, which is another reason I still don't really like her). Nynaeve has far more compassion, though, and a much better heart. She is loyal to those she cares for (something I can't really say of Cadsuane because I think the Tower culled the ability to truly care for another person out of almost all of its initiates, much like Nyn pointed out to Egwene) and isn't bogged down in political games. She has no desire to be bogged down in them, either. Because of the similarities, I can sort of see why people would claim Nyn will become another Cadsuane. However, I think Nynaeve will be a much better version of what Cadsuane was aiming for...provided she can get the hell away from Egwene as soon as possible.
I can't really dispute any of the above since it's essentially been my position for some time. The woman can be infuriating, but that's too be expected (if not justified) in someone who's been making kings and Amyrlins dance to her tune since Romanda was playing with dolls. She does it to everyone, but less with Rand and Nynaeve than with most others, which is no coincidence. Sooner or later I expect her to run afoul of the same "Assuming only you know best and that no one else has the integrity or wit to be trusted with your plans destroys even the greatest" theme that felled Pedron Niall and Elaida, to name just the most prominent. The door has been opened to a more positive lesson, however; if she can recognize, cooperate with and confide in the most capable and trustworthy Lightfriends (e.g. Verin) she could be a vital asset at Tarmon Gaidon. Hopefully confiding in Sorilea wasn't a horrible mistake, but it's heavily implied that even there she hasn't put all her cards on the table (in case you missed it, this is a reference to my suspicion that either Bair or Sorilea is a Darkfriend who revealed the location of the Domination Band Semi used on Rand).
Now, having taken with one hand, I give with the other: I've lost all tolerance for Egwene, and have essentially come to agree with you, Cannoli and your comrades. As I said to him elsewhere, while I don't think the WT or Amyrlin trivial or irrelevant, it's "The Prophecies of the Dragon" not "the Amyrlin". The walls separating Rand and LTTs personalities had been teetering for some time, but by the end of TGS they collapsed completely; for all intents and purposes, Rand and LTT are now a single indistinguishable person. That means Egwenes debate over destroying the Seals boils down to a teenaged girl telling LTT (most powerful channeler ever, gray haired when he died despite never having sworn an Oath and, oh, yeah, CREATOR OF THE SEALS) how to handle both the Seals and the Last Battle he's prophecied to fight and win. We've seen a number of quotations from the Karaethon Cycle; how many even allude to the Amyrlin Seat...?
Here's the good news: If Caddy has learned her lesson, Egwene has not, despite ample opportunities. She pays lip service to risk assessment and caution, but in practice she's still every bit as bad as Siuan when it comes to trusting capable allies, sharing her plans and outright arrogance. She seems to have the attitude that having learned the high price of being a know-it-all she'll never have to learn it again--so she promptly forgets it. RJ has heavily foreshadowed, explicitly stated a few times, that the old Seals must be destroyed before the Bore can be re-patched. That puts Egwene on a collision course with an inevitable and necessary plot element, a conflict she can't win. She's not being bullheaded with Rand, but with Jordan, and you may find the outcome at least partially satisfying (I don't think Jordan is going to off her and/or turn her because she's too well liked by fans and characters, but I do expect a serious comeuppance for her).
Things remain far from certain; the jury seems to still be out on whether Gawyn may yet kill his lady love (not to mention why), and with the White Tower reunited, the Seanchan driven off (for now) and Mesaana beaten, captured and destroyed Egwene probably feels very secure in Tar Valon. Meanwhile, if the WT aspect of my predicted channeler civil war is no longer viable, it remains quite viable for the Asha'man trained as weapons and unbound by the Three Oaths, which makes the difference negligible for any Aes Sedai Bound to them: If their Bondholder dies, they die, and that gives them an out for the Three Oaths against anyone, even the Amyrlin. Perhaps more importantly, Taim is clearly doing what any sensible person had to expect: Turning both Aes Sedai and Asha'man with Myrddraal, and Egwene, despite learning of the process as early as her Accepted test, won't see it coming; with all her apparent enemies vanquished, why should she? It's entirely possible that Gawyn will not only kill Egwene, but do a great service to the Light in the process. In a perfect world I'd not only be right about this, but Taim would reveal himself as a transmigrated Be'lal in the process so I get two birds with one stone. Hey, if you're gonna gamble, the long shots have the best payoffs, right?
Time will tell, but I think Egwene's far from out of the woods yet, and since she's learned that she SHOULD be humble but still can't manage to BE humble, I think the biggest lumps she'll take are yet to come.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
It appears hell hath turned a bit chilly today... (spoilers, in case you couldn't figure it out)
05/11/2010 02:31:27 AM
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Re: It appears hell hath turned a bit chilly today... (spoilers, in case you couldn't figure it out)
05/11/2010 03:37:54 AM
- 658 Views
Re: It appears hell hath turned a bit chilly today... (spoilers, in case you couldn't figure it out)
05/11/2010 09:55:15 AM
- 688 Views
Re: It appears hell hath turned a bit chilly today... (spoilers, in case you couldn't figure it out)
05/11/2010 01:51:20 PM
- 586 Views
Good...
05/11/2010 04:15:44 PM
- 653 Views
Re: Good...
05/11/2010 08:07:49 PM
- 623 Views
Re: Good...
05/11/2010 10:48:06 PM
- 578 Views
Hehehe, if Egwene and others were so accepting, how can so many books be written? *NM*
06/11/2010 01:44:15 AM
- 283 Views
Re: Hehehe, if Egwene and others were so accepting, how can so many books be written?
06/11/2010 04:11:41 AM
- 534 Views
Oh... she's helping Rand exactly as he wished her to help him... she just doesn't know it...
06/11/2010 05:08:41 AM
- 730 Views
Re: Oh... she's helping Rand exactly as he wished her to help him... she just doesn't know it...
08/11/2010 05:18:34 AM
- 666 Views
Re: Oh... she's helping Rand exactly as he wished her to help him... she just doesn't know it...
27/11/2010 11:27:57 PM
- 520 Views
A fair compromise; you accept Caddy and I repudiate Eggy.
23/11/2010 11:00:28 PM
- 680 Views