I've missed these arguments... you make such absurd points at times that you force me to re-look at these parts of the book, and I end up gettin unexpected gems. Thanks...
Actually, I wasn't referring to that agreement. While it does increase Egwene's personal influence, I do think it will be beneficial for all involved.
Cool.
*Shrugs*. You seem to have failed to notice that the most intelligent and tough part of the Hall is in full support of Egwene since they're clever enough to see that this isn't the time for politicking. The rest were shown as blathering idiots from day 1. Romanda and Lelaine have always been circling around each other, and this let Siuan manipulate them easily. The same crowd has now realized that Egwene isn't a puppet, so they're fixated on reducing her influence, which is truly high since she fought the Seanchan and pushed out the Black Ajah. It doesn't even remotely surprise me that they once again let themselves be fixated on their power-play and missed the obvious. It isn't so much that they don't remember that Rand is a king. They're just so used to thinking of him as a unique and huge problem that they failed to see he technically qualifies as a king. That part of him, King of Illian, is a mere droplet beside all the power and influence he holds. He pretty much shut them up without even trying. "King" is the least part of him. Easy to forget when you are idiotic enough to waste time power-mongering when the world outside is dying.
And the exclusive rights to deal with the monarchs is a really pointless power. She basically has that anyway. Without reference to the Hall, Egwene was already able to write to Darlin asking him to move his entire army where she wanted, and promise transportation for that army should they be needed to fight the Seanchan! In her letter, she was unilaterally able to declare that the Shadow is more important than the Seanchan, though you can be sure some idiots in the Hall wouldn't see it so. It was a fairly useless feather in Egwene's cap, except for the fact that the Hall can now not interfere with Rand. And if you seriously believe Egwene means to use Rand to gain more personal power...
You completely misread that whole thing, and honestly, you've ended up contradicting yourself here. First of all, if anything, Egwene has hobbled herself. Two thirds of the Hall was ready to meet in secret to curtail her power. Egwene's only solid support in the Hall is from the Black Ajah hunters and two of the Blues and Shevan (apparently). That is 7 people, exactly one third of the Hall, and completely useless to her if the other two-third were to make decisions she didn't like.
Now, whenever the Hall meets, Egwene has to work doubly hard to get a majority. She cannot now call her loyal 7 and a few extras and pass whatever law she wants. If she wants a motion passed now, she will openly have to lobby and convince women who think she has too much power. In effect, Egwene has closed the door for her to secretly get through any laws passed. She has severely curtailed her own power.
She has also made it impossible for any other influential group in the Hall to make things go their way in a similar manner. Now on, if anyone wants anything passed, including Egwene herself, they will have to openly work for support, while also giving their opponents an equal chance to prepare a rebuttal. Which means everyone's power is checked now. No one can slyly manipulate a few people to get what they want. How the hell is this bad?
Consider this too... how many Amyrlins have had the complete support of every single Sitter in the Hall all the time? I'm willing to bet that not one has. This means that no vote from now on that requires the Greater Consensus can be passed unless and until all 21 Sitters have openly been convinced. That is a strengthening of the democratic seeds in the Tower, and a weakening of the holes that can lead to tyranny. Your rather blind opposition to this is contradictory to your own position that too much power is bad.
Well, we have this from her:
King Darlin. Your concern for your kingdom is well measured, as is your loyalty to the man you follow.
She says straight out that Darlin's loyalty to Rand is well measured, and by the Oaths, that is true. She cannot possibly say that if she means to winkle him away from Rand and have him come under her sway. She has made it clear this meeting is only about the Seals, and Darlin has made it clear that but for the Seals, he will be completely loyal to Rand. And Egwene has said she approves of that loyalty. So she does intend to let them go.
The Last Battle is about to appear, and they haven't even agreed to this procedure yet. Even when they do, it'll be two women in each exchange. This not going to have any impact on the Last Battle, and don't even try to use it as a justification.
What crap. The point is not that these twelve women will immediately transform these different groups into a unified body. the point is that with the assurance that Aes Sedai cannot force them to join up, the Windfinders and Wise Ones are far more likely to be able to trust and work with these women. Once such a deal has been made, they don't have to look at each other with suspicion. That is the benefit of this deal. The greater benefit of all three knowing and respecting the ways of the others is long years away, and will not affect the LB at all.
I do hope you're kidding. If you're not, then this seems like justification for the Seanchan conquest of the entire continent.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't know the difference between justification for an act and the political motive for an act? I'm trying here to explain Elayne's motivation. She is less concerned by the greater power she gets than with the fact that this stabilizes two nations for the Last Battle.
So her pursuit of personal power is justified because it will result in additional personal power. This is nonsense. Every other bickering noble is trying to gain additional power and stop their rivals from opposing them too.
To what end, though? Elayne's primary goal is the Last Battle, followed by the Seanchan. That is hardly true of many other nobles.
They'll all be allied against the Shadow anyway.
What books have you been reading? We see 11 books with nobles and Aes Sedai fighting each other for personal power and you still believe they would have presented a solid front to the Shadow anyway?
In place of Elayne, any other noble would have beheaded (or attempted to) Perrin and Faile, and imposed their rule on the Two Rivers. So don't give me crap about how everyone would have been united no matter what.
I wasn't aware that Egwene had made any particular mention of it, but if she does want Elayne as Queen of Cairhien it's probably so she can have an Aes Sedai as Queen of Cairhien.
Elayne mentions Egwene wanting her as Queen of Cairhein, which I assume they discussed off-screen in TAR. And sure, and Aes Sedai queen of Cairhein could be it, but I'm sure it matters more to Egwene that it is Elayne who's becoming the Aes Sedai Queen, and that this will mean a unified Cairhein-Andor and White Tower allied against the Shadow and the Seanchan.
Of course she does. Every nation is justified in wanting them, it makes their nation more powerful. She has the same justification as Murandy or Tear or Arad Doman or the Seanchan or even the Shadow.
Except she doesn't want to use them to conquer, which the Shadow and the Seanchan at least will want to do. She wants to use them in defense. That will not last, once she is dead, but nor will Andor's monopoly on these weapons. But if a WMD has entered the field, I'd rather it be in the hands of someone who doesn't thirst for an empire than in the hands of every army there is, being used in offense as much as in defense.
She seized them from Rebels. She's okay with the war being called a War of Succession, but the point remains that by fighting the ascension of the Daughter Heir, these people rebelled against her. She had every right to seize their lands (as did Rand with Colavere). What is unconventional is the way she disposed of them, given the unique situation of her being prospective Queen of two nations.
What war? Elayne said that is technically how most Queens would have dealt with the matter, but she wouldn't do it that way herself. It is more than implied that the fact that she knows Perrin, his role in the LB, etc. plays a part, as does her knowledge that it would be pure idiocy to start a war inside her territories with the Shadow looming closer everyday!
Yes, you use external threats as a justification for all kinds of political power-seeking. Watch:
Colavaere: Yes, I seized the throne, but with the Last Battle looming, we cannot await for Egwene to decide that she's tired of playing around in Altara and take the Sun Throne herself, Cairhien needs a monarch to restore order and prepare the nation to fight against the Shadow!
I see. And how did this justify working with women bent on kidnapping the Dragon Reborn himself? You seem to take the words of Elayne and Colavaere on face value only, refusing to dig deeper and figure out the true motivations for their acts. If you can show me one bit of proof that Colavere had anything planned for the Last Battle, or that she intended to somehow use her position to free Rand to do his thing, then you'd have a point. Till then, this is a straw-man.
But the White Tower is already set against the Shadow! With or without Tuon's control, the Tower will march against the Shadow.
Your argument would have some merit if you were comparing Tuon's plan to, say, a hypothetical plan of Elayne's to conquer Tear so that there would be a strong alliance against the Shadow. She does no such thing because she is aware that Darlin is faithful to the DR and is mobilizing to fight the Last Battle.
If you say so...
Actually, I wasn't referring to that agreement. While it does increase Egwene's personal influence, I do think it will be beneficial for all involved.
Cool.
I was, in fact, referring to her dealings with the Hall of the Tower. Gaining exclusive authority to deal with every other monarch in the Westlands is ridiculous enough, even without that childish trick of "Oh wait, the Dragon Reborn counts as a monarch?" and I really have no idea how the Hall let that pass. Actually, I do, I've been saying throughout The Gathering Storm and even before - Egwene's successes are built on Aes Sedai idiocy. So this is par for the course.
*Shrugs*. You seem to have failed to notice that the most intelligent and tough part of the Hall is in full support of Egwene since they're clever enough to see that this isn't the time for politicking. The rest were shown as blathering idiots from day 1. Romanda and Lelaine have always been circling around each other, and this let Siuan manipulate them easily. The same crowd has now realized that Egwene isn't a puppet, so they're fixated on reducing her influence, which is truly high since she fought the Seanchan and pushed out the Black Ajah. It doesn't even remotely surprise me that they once again let themselves be fixated on their power-play and missed the obvious. It isn't so much that they don't remember that Rand is a king. They're just so used to thinking of him as a unique and huge problem that they failed to see he technically qualifies as a king. That part of him, King of Illian, is a mere droplet beside all the power and influence he holds. He pretty much shut them up without even trying. "King" is the least part of him. Easy to forget when you are idiotic enough to waste time power-mongering when the world outside is dying.
And the exclusive rights to deal with the monarchs is a really pointless power. She basically has that anyway. Without reference to the Hall, Egwene was already able to write to Darlin asking him to move his entire army where she wanted, and promise transportation for that army should they be needed to fight the Seanchan! In her letter, she was unilaterally able to declare that the Shadow is more important than the Seanchan, though you can be sure some idiots in the Hall wouldn't see it so. It was a fairly useless feather in Egwene's cap, except for the fact that the Hall can now not interfere with Rand. And if you seriously believe Egwene means to use Rand to gain more personal power...
But then there's the rescinding of the tradition that allows the Hall to convene without the Amyrlin. Not saying that it wasn't an idiotic tradition that would naturally lead to deceit and backstabbing, I'm just saying that wasn't the reason why Egwene wanted it abolished. Now she's limited the Hall's ability to operate as a check to the Amyrlin's power. And that's why she did it.
You completely misread that whole thing, and honestly, you've ended up contradicting yourself here. First of all, if anything, Egwene has hobbled herself. Two thirds of the Hall was ready to meet in secret to curtail her power. Egwene's only solid support in the Hall is from the Black Ajah hunters and two of the Blues and Shevan (apparently). That is 7 people, exactly one third of the Hall, and completely useless to her if the other two-third were to make decisions she didn't like.
Now, whenever the Hall meets, Egwene has to work doubly hard to get a majority. She cannot now call her loyal 7 and a few extras and pass whatever law she wants. If she wants a motion passed now, she will openly have to lobby and convince women who think she has too much power. In effect, Egwene has closed the door for her to secretly get through any laws passed. She has severely curtailed her own power.
She has also made it impossible for any other influential group in the Hall to make things go their way in a similar manner. Now on, if anyone wants anything passed, including Egwene herself, they will have to openly work for support, while also giving their opponents an equal chance to prepare a rebuttal. Which means everyone's power is checked now. No one can slyly manipulate a few people to get what they want. How the hell is this bad?
Consider this too... how many Amyrlins have had the complete support of every single Sitter in the Hall all the time? I'm willing to bet that not one has. This means that no vote from now on that requires the Greater Consensus can be passed unless and until all 21 Sitters have openly been convinced. That is a strengthening of the democratic seeds in the Tower, and a weakening of the holes that can lead to tyranny. Your rather blind opposition to this is contradictory to your own position that too much power is bad.
And there's this gathering of people of influence she's calling to stand against Rand - under the White Tower. Tell me, do you really believe that once under Egwene's grasp she'll ever willingly let them go?
Well, we have this from her:
King Darlin. Your concern for your kingdom is well measured, as is your loyalty to the man you follow.
She says straight out that Darlin's loyalty to Rand is well measured, and by the Oaths, that is true. She cannot possibly say that if she means to winkle him away from Rand and have him come under her sway. She has made it clear this meeting is only about the Seals, and Darlin has made it clear that but for the Seals, he will be completely loyal to Rand. And Egwene has said she approves of that loyalty. So she does intend to let them go.
The Last Battle is about to appear, and they haven't even agreed to this procedure yet. Even when they do, it'll be two women in each exchange. This not going to have any impact on the Last Battle, and don't even try to use it as a justification.
What crap. The point is not that these twelve women will immediately transform these different groups into a unified body. the point is that with the assurance that Aes Sedai cannot force them to join up, the Windfinders and Wise Ones are far more likely to be able to trust and work with these women. Once such a deal has been made, they don't have to look at each other with suspicion. That is the benefit of this deal. The greater benefit of all three knowing and respecting the ways of the others is long years away, and will not affect the LB at all.
I do hope you're kidding. If you're not, then this seems like justification for the Seanchan conquest of the entire continent.
Are you seriously telling me that you don't know the difference between justification for an act and the political motive for an act? I'm trying here to explain Elayne's motivation. She is less concerned by the greater power she gets than with the fact that this stabilizes two nations for the Last Battle.
So her pursuit of personal power is justified because it will result in additional personal power. This is nonsense. Every other bickering noble is trying to gain additional power and stop their rivals from opposing them too.
To what end, though? Elayne's primary goal is the Last Battle, followed by the Seanchan. That is hardly true of many other nobles.
They'll all be allied against the Shadow anyway.
What books have you been reading? We see 11 books with nobles and Aes Sedai fighting each other for personal power and you still believe they would have presented a solid front to the Shadow anyway?
In place of Elayne, any other noble would have beheaded (or attempted to) Perrin and Faile, and imposed their rule on the Two Rivers. So don't give me crap about how everyone would have been united no matter what.
I wasn't aware that Egwene had made any particular mention of it, but if she does want Elayne as Queen of Cairhien it's probably so she can have an Aes Sedai as Queen of Cairhien.
Elayne mentions Egwene wanting her as Queen of Cairhein, which I assume they discussed off-screen in TAR. And sure, and Aes Sedai queen of Cairhein could be it, but I'm sure it matters more to Egwene that it is Elayne who's becoming the Aes Sedai Queen, and that this will mean a unified Cairhein-Andor and White Tower allied against the Shadow and the Seanchan.
Of course she does. Every nation is justified in wanting them, it makes their nation more powerful. She has the same justification as Murandy or Tear or Arad Doman or the Seanchan or even the Shadow.
Except she doesn't want to use them to conquer, which the Shadow and the Seanchan at least will want to do. She wants to use them in defense. That will not last, once she is dead, but nor will Andor's monopoly on these weapons. But if a WMD has entered the field, I'd rather it be in the hands of someone who doesn't thirst for an empire than in the hands of every army there is, being used in offense as much as in defense.
Now, what about the fact that she seizes some of the richest estates in her kingdom from their owners so that she can give them to people she needs to bribe to fulfil her own ambitions? A ruler who claims to have the right to seize your property for her own benefit is in direct violation of one of the three natural rights of John Locke - life, liberty and estate.
She seized them from Rebels. She's okay with the war being called a War of Succession, but the point remains that by fighting the ascension of the Daughter Heir, these people rebelled against her. She had every right to seize their lands (as did Rand with Colavere). What is unconventional is the way she disposed of them, given the unique situation of her being prospective Queen of two nations.
Or how about that bit about starting a war with the Two Rivers on the eve of the Last Battle to either soothe her pride or else to increase her own power? Starting a war with one of the Light's champions isn't going to help in the Last Battle, far from. What's your justification for this one, the Seanchan?
What war? Elayne said that is technically how most Queens would have dealt with the matter, but she wouldn't do it that way herself. It is more than implied that the fact that she knows Perrin, his role in the LB, etc. plays a part, as does her knowledge that it would be pure idiocy to start a war inside her territories with the Shadow looming closer everyday!
Yes, you use external threats as a justification for all kinds of political power-seeking. Watch:
Colavaere: Yes, I seized the throne, but with the Last Battle looming, we cannot await for Egwene to decide that she's tired of playing around in Altara and take the Sun Throne herself, Cairhien needs a monarch to restore order and prepare the nation to fight against the Shadow!
I see. And how did this justify working with women bent on kidnapping the Dragon Reborn himself? You seem to take the words of Elayne and Colavaere on face value only, refusing to dig deeper and figure out the true motivations for their acts. If you can show me one bit of proof that Colavere had anything planned for the Last Battle, or that she intended to somehow use her position to free Rand to do his thing, then you'd have a point. Till then, this is a straw-man.
Fortuona: We are perfectly justified in attacking and capturing the White Tower. This number of channelers represents an invaluable asset for the Last Battle and under the banner of the Empire they can offer a much stronger bulwark against the Shadow!
But the White Tower is already set against the Shadow! With or without Tuon's control, the Tower will march against the Shadow.
Your argument would have some merit if you were comparing Tuon's plan to, say, a hypothetical plan of Elayne's to conquer Tear so that there would be a strong alliance against the Shadow. She does no such thing because she is aware that Darlin is faithful to the DR and is mobilizing to fight the Last Battle.
And so on.
If you say so...
This message last edited by fionwe1987 on 10/11/2010 at 01:29:07 AM
So about the nobility.
- 09/11/2010 06:53:34 AM
1190 Views
Thank you. I couldn't put a finger on why that bothered me.
- 09/11/2010 08:27:26 AM
791 Views
I don't have any problems with this - they are trying to get more power to survive.
- 09/11/2010 04:08:22 PM
780 Views
If that power is needed to survive, how will those she takes it from survive?
- 09/11/2010 09:23:15 PM
747 Views
I disagree
- 09/11/2010 07:28:39 PM
684 Views
Re: I disagree
- 09/11/2010 09:29:11 PM
769 Views
Re: I disagree
- 10/11/2010 12:30:33 AM
703 Views
Re: I disagree
- 10/11/2010 01:07:19 AM
702 Views
Yes, of course...
- 10/11/2010 01:36:30 AM
718 Views
If you can stay on subject, yes.
- 10/11/2010 03:22:49 AM
882 Views
*Scratches head*
- 09/11/2010 10:59:29 PM
739 Views
Re: *Scratches head*
- 09/11/2010 11:50:00 PM
806 Views
Damn...
- 10/11/2010 01:27:28 AM
636 Views