He's special the same way any individual is special.
RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
Demandred, Lanfear, Semirhage, Graendal and Sammael could probably duel one another with unpredictable results, and the result would be 50-50 if they dueled a hundred times. It makes them inferior to Ishamael and Lews Therin, but not to each other.
If Ishamael is superior to the others, I just haven't seen it. The only time he's gained any real advantages has been after Moghedien and Cyndane were mindtrapped and given to him, and that was after he had suffered multiple defeats and been given a new body.
If it came down to an outright fight, and the Dark One commanded them to fight one another to the death using any means necessary, I tend to think Ishamael would be one of the first eliminated - the only thing that seems to keep him from being wiped out is the uneasy amnesty that exists among the Forsaken for most of the series - he shows himself incapable of grasping basic experiences that the others understand very well, most probably because he is partially insane and because of his use of the True Power, probably worse off than many of the male channelers running around insane.
He just never struck me as a legitimate threat in the way Lanfear, Graendal, Sammael, semirhage or Demandred have. Ishamael seems to have suffered the most from the "BS degree in Evil Villainy 101" syndrome.
In fact, I think that there were many Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends who were equal to Lews Therin, all things considered, including Latra Posae Decume - we know Lews Therin's weak points probably better than any channelers at this point, not counting my personal feelings that he is especially attuned to Air, Fire and Spirit with weakness abilities with Water and Earth. He seems to balance quite well with the Forsaken, who were his peers, and channelers of his own comparable potential in terms of capability to channel greater volumes of the Power next to their various skillsets.
I don't really agree with you. I do agree with you that Ishamael has not produced the goods, but I think he is undoubtedly meant to be Rand's counterpart in the Shadow. The series is totally saturated with quotes about his unparalleled power in the Shadow. In fact, if there is anyone we can be sure of, it should be him.
The Guide mentions him as the undoubted top captain general of the Shadow, and probably the first man to turn to the Dark One. He dueled Lews Therin in one of the few known duels of the War of Power in front of the biggest city in the world. He's fought Rand three times, and died, and become the Nae'blis. He commands the other Forsaken. Everything about him suggests that there is something just one step above the others.
RJ did say the Guide was written from the standpoint of a scholar so there is a lot of material that you can't take as irrefutable truth. A nice way to get out of giving the readers too much info in my opinion - it gave him a nice escape hatch.
I mean, technically, if we want to talk about his "unparalleled" power in the Shadow, it's pretty hard to reconcile this with his defeats by a barely trained farmboy, even if said farmboy has the reborn soul of his ancient enemy. I'm sorry, but I get the feeling that Ishamael's reputation is vastly undeserved. He's a thinker - not a fighter. And in a war, it's no surprise that A) He never held a field command and B) He was defeated each time he confronted his "nemesis" in battle, despite having more advantages. The only thing we are absolutely sure he is superior to the other Forsaken in, is his insanity. Otherwise, he's not much to speak of.
As for Lews Therin, I think he was equalled as an allround channeler by only a few people. Mesaana's quote that Demandred would be the undoubted best man of the Age if not for Lews Therin is quite a strong statement, and even Lanfear says that Lews Therin could equal any Aes Sedai in power. He was not strong in everything, much like Rand, but he could perform many feats which other Aes Sedai could not, and he was a masterful channeler to the point that he was chosen to be the highest member of the Hall.
I don't think so - I tend to think that the term "greatest of the Age" itself is so loaded with subjective judgements that it is a little ridiculous. He's greater than the greatest Healers? By virtue of what? Or does this means he's a great orator or leader? It's never really expressed. This is somewhat like claiming Time Magazine's "Person of the Year" is grounded in objective measurements, when it really is Time's overall opinion ie: subjective judgement. I don't buy it. It's a little too hokey for me, and devalues the series IMO.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
The top 6 Forsaken - similar in the One Power
12/09/2009 09:27:20 PM
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The Big White Book says...
12/09/2009 11:46:43 PM
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Not Aginor
13/09/2009 08:36:37 AM
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Re: Not Aginor
13/09/2009 03:16:13 PM
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Re: Not Aginor
13/09/2009 05:47:14 PM
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Fact is, the bwb is untrustworthy
13/09/2009 05:54:28 PM
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But, RJ himself said that the BWB was written from the standpoint of a scholar
14/09/2009 04:42:59 PM
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It all depends on how you define "powerful"
14/09/2009 02:30:31 AM
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So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
13/09/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Graendal could fight Lanfear and win
13/09/2009 06:01:57 PM
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Graendal herself says...
13/09/2009 09:08:46 PM
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Lanfear was more powerful than Graendal, but Cyndane has less power
13/09/2009 10:19:35 PM
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Re: So is graendal similar to lanfear then?
13/09/2009 06:05:11 PM
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Compulsion=any other deadly weave. Doesn't really change matters
13/09/2009 10:23:40 PM
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But it did give her an edge, and against two forsaken. *NM*
13/09/2009 11:12:09 PM
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Not at all
14/09/2009 04:51:48 AM
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But Graendal confronted her... twice! *NM*
13/09/2009 07:48:29 PM
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Apparently only the third time counts *NM*
13/09/2009 08:00:37 PM
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But the third time's supposed to be lucky. So that won't count either. *NM*
13/09/2009 11:26:18 PM
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Really?
13/09/2009 08:36:33 PM
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No falsely...
13/09/2009 11:25:40 PM
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And, of course, the male and female OP strength ranks might not even correlate that much
14/09/2009 04:41:58 PM
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They correlate on some critical points
14/09/2009 06:57:43 PM
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That's not exactly what I'm referring to.
15/09/2009 04:36:29 PM
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But then we are discussing the same thing
15/09/2009 06:59:04 PM
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I think, outside of semantics, our main disagreement doesn't lie amid the higher tiers
16/09/2009 03:53:09 PM
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Probably
16/09/2009 06:31:27 PM
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I only disagree on one point, I think they are all rather equal in potential, incl. Ishamael
14/09/2009 04:28:12 PM
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I do think Ishamel is special
14/09/2009 07:04:03 PM
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He's special the same way any individual is special.
14/09/2009 11:36:42 PM
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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
15/09/2009 08:36:20 AM
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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
15/09/2009 03:48:34 PM
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Re: He's special the same way any individual is special.
15/09/2009 04:39:39 PM
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The more interesting question is...
14/09/2009 06:34:11 PM
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Hmmm
14/09/2009 07:04:34 PM
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I think we'll see Graendal vs. Aran'gar.
14/09/2009 07:31:16 PM
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Ah yes, that makes sense, and would be great! *NM*
14/09/2009 07:40:29 PM
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Yeah. Though I think its no competition. Graendal has got to be better than a walking tree!
14/09/2009 07:50:09 PM
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They do imply that Graendal is a lot more dangerous than she looks
14/09/2009 09:08:43 PM
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I've never underestimated Graendal
14/09/2009 09:42:49 PM
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Yeah... her frivolity was always a red flag for me too.
14/09/2009 10:18:40 PM
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To me, she is the most lethal.
15/09/2009 05:18:10 PM
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I still like Lanfear more
15/09/2009 06:51:03 PM
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Graendal did not beat me and Moghedien
15/09/2009 05:59:39 PM
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Agreed
15/09/2009 06:36:48 PM
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Ummm... how do we know?
15/09/2009 06:40:57 PM
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