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What should historical effects mean? That blip is actually sort of comforting. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 04/11/2010 01:31:23 AM
I felt sad in tSR, yes. But those things had already happened, and the actions of the characters themselves (Rand, in particular) cannot in any way change that.
So the death of a loved one that has already happened should not make you feel sad, but the fact of the eventual death of another loved one should?

This was worse. Whether inevitable or not, we see that the sacrifices and pains taken by the characters are not enough to save their own people.
Well how long is that salvation supposed to last them? What do you want - a guarantee of eternal prosperity? Their grandkids were still rulers and authority figures. Projecting associations and inherited benefits further down the years is kind of ridiculous, especially since it seems likely that Rand & Aviendha hardly knew their children, let alone their grandchildren and beyond. These people are strangers to Rand & Aviendha, not loved ones, with less claim on their affections than the late unlamented Janduin & Shaiel (I thought naming one of their sons after that asshole was a bit much too).

Sure, the Dark One is apparently defeated. But when you see the last surviving heir of the Dragon Rebron is shot dead for scavenging food from the refuse bin of a Seanchan army camp, it isn't nice or comfortable. That all this was the fault of their own descendents makes it even worse.
How so?

As readers, most people tend to associate with characters enough that they think the characters are going to make a lasting impression on the world. That's what we all want to do anyway.
Why? That seems like the most absurd sort of vanity. "All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." At some point you have to kick the kids out of the nest. The umpteenth great-grandchildren are well beyond any genuine connection or emotional investment. Anyway, Rand's impression is the actual presence of that same world.

A cold perspective might tell you that this is almost never the case, but that doesn't mean you don't feel disappointed and sad. For me, anyway, it was seeing that in some ways, what Rand and his friends do is worth nothing more than a blip in the sweep of history is the true reason for sorrow, though logic might dictate that will be the case anyway.
And you find the idea of a dozen generations later still operating under the same situation enforced upon them by their ancestor to be better? You would feel better about a world where Rand's line is locked into enternal prosperity because at the end of a moment of world-wide upheaval, he ended up on top of the heap?

The difference in our perspectives on this issue, I think is derived from basic values on the one hand. I am not sure how you stand, but I am an individualist over collectivist in my values. I believe that an individual bears sole and total responsibility for his actions, and for no more than his actions. Rand's issues and success or failure in the world is a moot point beyond his death. The situation after that is for other people to deal with. Events and choices made after his death have nothing to do with him. The failure and destruction of his descendents reflects no failure or loss on his part. These are not parts of Rand that are dying, they are discrete individuals.

And on the other hand, it has to do with my already established position vis a vis the Aiel culture and life. I have, I think, made it clear that I felt their outlook and habits were a cultural dead end. Why should I ever be surprised or tremendously affected by something that is more or less what I have seen coming for a long time now? It's like watching a criminal hang. However likable he might be, that entirely foreseeable outcome of his lifestyle can only be so sad, because you're inured to it to a certain degree, having been prepared for a long time. It is not that I hate the Aiel and revel in their demise, while those of you who like them are hurt by their fate. Rather, I am the doctor who has diagnosed their terminal illness and those of you who scoffed at me or took it with a grain of salt or wrote it off as my crazy rantings, are shocked to see them die. To you, it came out of the blue, while I have long accepted the probability of an outcome like this. You see them crushed and destroyed and go "WHAT?!?!" and my reaction is "Duh."

Back when this was a common quick poll topic, do you remember the guy who most often made the case that the Seanchan could and would kick Aiel ass? I say this not to gloat or say "I told you so" - just to show you how I might be naturally inclined to accept the decline and defeat of the Aiel, particularly at Seanchan hands (and acceptance is supposedly the final stage in the grieving process - I took the news at stage five, while the rest of you might still be working through it).
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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What should historical effects mean? That blip is actually sort of comforting. - 04/11/2010 01:31:23 AM 551 Views
Re: What's with all the Aviendha-related angst? - 05/11/2010 01:47:38 PM 552 Views
Re: What's with all the Aviendha-related angst? - 06/11/2010 06:48:37 PM 529 Views

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