I ask again, what evidence is there of their corruption?
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 08/10/2010 01:56:49 AM
There is still a lot of question out there too as to what corruptions are in play ... is it the Seanchan version, the mainland version or perhaps pieces of both?
In both cases, and very likely in the case of the "differences" between the two versions of the Prophecies, the explanation is that the character claiming the Prophecies do not mention things is unaware of the references to those actual things. How is Moiraine supposed to recognize the verse Noal recites as obviously refering to Mat? Did even we, the brilliant readers note at the time that it might very well have been a reference to Tuon herself? "Fortune rides..." seems a lot more meaningful now that the Daughter of the Nine Moons has taken a higher name.
So as far as the discrepancies between the prophecies, there are one of two immediate explanations:
1. The things that are supposedly omitted are, in fact, not. Rather they are phrased in a way that makes people who are unfamiliar with the details of the event or persons mentioned miss the reference or its meaning. Thus Moiraine overlooks the mention of the Aiel in an extremely well-known prophecy and a Seanchan dilettante could completely miss a reference to the Crystal Throne or the Empress in a prophecy written or spoken by someone who had never seen or heard of either one. Maybe the prophecier had an image-type vision of Rand kneeling before a glowing throne and mistook it for the Creator's throne or something, or simply called it by a name that would not connect with the office or person of the Empress in the mind of a Seanchan.
2. Even if there is no reference to an event in one prophecy, it does not mean the other prophecy is wrong to mention it, nor is it proof of contradiction between prophecies, unless one prophecy is completely in opposition to the other. If one says "he will never kneel before the Crystal Throne" and the other says "he will kneel before the Crystal Throne" THAT is a contradiction. And even if there are contradictions, they could be simply false interpretations. For example, one version could say "He shall never kneel before the Crystal Throne" and another could say "He shall kneel to the child of the hammer and offer justice to her." Maybe a Seanchan would not get the latter reference and would take the former to mean he will never kneel to the Empress, because in the Seanchan mind, the two are linked, just as in the USA we refer to the President and the Oval Office as one and the same. Meanwhile, it could mean something as literal as the fact that when Rand does kneel to Tuon, she is on this side of the Aryth Ocean and not in possession of the actual throne itself. Perhaps the Seanchan reader might not know that Hawkwing was called the Hammer of the Light in the wetlands and completely miss the reference to her in my hypothetical prophecy. And who can say what it means by justice? Will Rand submit to her judgment or will he offer to pay reparations for the harm he has done her people, or will he simply offer his new-found sword as part of the ritual of submission, with no one actually realizing that the sword in question is (supposedly at least) Hawkwing's own Justice?
Personally I've always been of the mindset that Ishamael edited the Seanchan version of the prophecies to make them fanatical about TDR bowing before their Empress, knowing damn well that the real version will not make that a reality and knowing that they would never follow him if he refuses.
That's a fun little bit of fan fiction, but where is the evidence, aside from your own extrapolation with Ishamael's character? Given especially the theme from the very beginning of the series about how things change over the passage of time, this seems like an absurdly long gambit to play. The supposed back-story I have seen offered for these machinations suggests that he is able to predict the ripple effect on a culture ten centuries in the future that will result from his altering a few phrases in a prophecy!Occam's Razor suggests that the devotion to the Empress, both in her person and office, is the natural result of a deliberate campaign or else an organic understanding that the rule of the Empress IS the glue holding together this enormous, continent-spanning Empire, cobbled together from widely varied regions, cultures and ethnicities. There are so many centrifugal forces in any multinational empire or multi-ethnic state that they NEED something that can bind them all together. That is generally, in the case of successful empires or confederations that manage to hold off their dissolution, a common ruler or other common focus for the loyalty of otherwise disparate peoples, particularly under such a pervasive bureaucracy and brutal enforcement of Imperial rule. While you can rule to a certain extent with fear, you also need to offer something, even if only symbolic, to get people to go along. They need an excuse to believe and to convince themselves that they are not being cowed into submission, they are adhering to their love of the (blank). Even the highly repressive Stalinist USSR, during World War Two, began recalling all sorts of nationalist institutions and symbols they themselves had banned and savagely driven from the public eye, such as the church and patriotic or historical symbols.
The above phenomenon is a much more likely explanation for the reverence given the ruler of the Seanchan Empire, than some clever rephrasing of the Prophecies a thousand years ago. That would be like suggesting that people want to ban flag-burning and make the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory, because someone altered the Bible early in the eleventh century. Such a theory would be ridiculous, and the Bible had a far greater impact on American culture and political development than the Karaethon Cycle has in the world of WoT. That is simply a prophecy of the end times - the WoT equivalent of the Book of the Apocalypse, without all the rest of the Bible, such as the Psalms or the Ten Commandments or the Creation story and the fall of Adam and the Gospels including the Sermon on the Mount and the Passion, and the Epistles of Paul and all the rest. Really, Apocalypse is one of the least influential books of the Bible, despite the glamor of the end of the world stuff, and one of the least understood or known(for instance, everyone gets the Four Horsemen wrong). The Karaethon cycle AT BEST holds an equivalent place in wetlander or Seanchan culture to the Book of Apocalypse in ours. And let's not even get into the fact that the people who run the media don't even acknowledge that book as divine Scripture (which would probably explain everyone getting the Four Horsemen wrong). To assert that a particular cultural trait, which follows a principle often seen at work elsewhere in the course of WoT (i.e. Rand's followers all preferring him to their erstwhile allies, and only keeping from fighting one another by their obedience to him; various mentions about how people are trained, etc), is the result of a subtle manipulation of a writing that holds little or no direct importance to anyone who dies before the events foretold therein come to pass, is a bit too over-complicating for me to accept.
It's not just the Tower that pulls this shit ... nearly every character in the series pulls this shit!
But isn't the whole point of Egwene's storyline to put her in a position to stop that shit?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
I think I know what they're going to talk about...
01/10/2010 05:52:33 PM
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Pretty much - Egwene always wants to pin the blame on someone else; she won't appreciate correction
02/10/2010 08:30:02 PM
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Do you really think he'll tell her to back off the Seanchan?
02/10/2010 09:33:06 PM
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We can hope.
02/10/2010 09:48:26 PM
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She'd be pissed just like everyone else in the series.
03/10/2010 12:52:58 AM
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She has no reason to be pissed about being asked to follow Rand - but that won't stop her of course.
03/10/2010 12:57:48 PM
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So you would be fine if the leader of your country simply decided one day to follow someone else in
03/10/2010 04:00:27 PM
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I'll bet Eggy gets ta'veren'd *NM*
05/10/2010 06:19:40 AM
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that would ruin her character just as much as it would have ruined Tuon's *NM*
05/10/2010 06:34:09 AM
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Maybe because they leash female channelers and practice chattel slavery?
05/10/2010 03:29:31 PM
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Yeah, a 50 year threat of nuclear war is so much better than an army that couldn't cross the Channel
06/10/2010 03:52:49 AM
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almost certainly
05/10/2010 04:26:43 AM
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Yes, but Tuon is now the aggressor
05/10/2010 04:35:17 PM
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Calling her the agressor does not increase the threat. The situation is unchanged
07/10/2010 06:35:15 PM
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you know all those prophecies that say he will "bind the 9 moons to him"?
07/10/2010 07:04:50 PM
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I ask again, what evidence is there of their corruption?
08/10/2010 01:56:49 AM
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We'll all find out soon enough about the truth of the prophecies. I admit that any of these options
08/10/2010 02:47:10 AM
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that's why she won't like hearing it
07/10/2010 07:19:29 PM
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I'm not convinced he will at this point is what I'm saying
07/10/2010 07:59:03 PM
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the Rand in chapter one seems likely to preach love not war
08/10/2010 05:32:21 AM
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They are on the offensive is the point. Even if Rand says not to attack them to Egwene
08/10/2010 01:45:49 PM
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