I was reading LoC again today. The Forsaken chapters, at least. There certainly are a lot of them.
You do realize that this was seven books ago? You might as well base Forsaken strength on EoTW.
Anyway, I was reading them through the perspective of the ToM Prologue scene, where Graendal had overcome Arangar and Delana together with some ease.
This has of course opened up the debate over Graendal's standing in the direct One Power confrontation rankings. Some have leaped to the conclusion that Graendal must be one of the most formidable One Power opponents that one can face in direct battle.
Others have been more cautious. I'm one of the latter.
This has of course opened up the debate over Graendal's standing in the direct One Power confrontation rankings. Some have leaped to the conclusion that Graendal must be one of the most formidable One Power opponents that one can face in direct battle.
Others have been more cautious. I'm one of the latter.
Most likely because it presents irrefutible evidence that the 'men are all powerful' theory belongs in the Recycle Bin.
In particular, the 2nd Graendal/Sammael scene gives me great trouble if Graendal is to be seen as more dangerous in a One Power duel than the top male Forsaken. It just does not tie up.
This scene of course contains a reference to Rahvin. Graendal is thinking privately that she would never confront Rand directly.
This scene of course contains a reference to Rahvin. Graendal is thinking privately that she would never confront Rand directly.
As Fionwe said, Ishamael is the most powerful of them all. Why would she go after Rand if he can't beat him?
She says that if Ishamael and Rahvin had fallen to his strength, she was definitely not going to challenge him head on. For the sake of argument I tried to replace Rahvin's name with Balthamel's, and asked myself the question:
Would Graendal have felt the same way if Rand had defeated Balthamel in battle instead of Rahvin? Would it have inspired the same fear in Graendal? I cannot see that being the case.
Would Graendal have felt the same way if Rand had defeated Balthamel in battle instead of Rahvin? Would it have inspired the same fear in Graendal? I cannot see that being the case.
Based on what? Aran'gar fought against a circle of similar size to Graendal during the Cleansing of saidin and killed one of the members. She held her ground as well as Demandred and Cyndane did before they were driven off.
Which tells me that Rand's defeat of Rahvin inspired respect in Graendal because Rahvin was a particularly powerful and dangerous channeler.
Graendal does not respect Rahvin any more than she respects any of her other peers : which is zero. How has Rahvin proven himself any more dangerous than Ishamael, Osan'gar, Lanfear, Sammael or Semirhage in his encounter with Rand? The outcome is always the same. Graendal knows that Rahvin is a high level channeler, and with the same training that she has, and he still lost. There is no logical deduction on the relative strengths of either.
What this leads me to believe is that Graendal might be able to defeat Arangar - and I acknowledge that the exact circumstances remain in great doubt - but someone like Rahvin would be a completely different kettle of fish for her.
Which you have zero proof for. Rahvin wanted to Travel when the two women became angry in front of him, and there is no proof that he is or ever was superior to Balthamel as a Forsaken. Neither of the two are on Jordan's list of Forsaken who were consistently at the top.
In the same way, Sammael is said to be as powerful as Rand in CoS. If Graendal fears facing someone who defeated Rahvin, how would she feel facing someone as powerful as Rand himself?
Graendal says if she attacked Sammael if he already held the Source, she would DEFINITELY die.
Graendal says if she attacked Sammael if he already held the Source, she would DEFINITELY die.
Of course she would die... he's holding saidin! Flinn could kill her before she reached for saidar if he's ready. You also conveniently forget that she's considering at that very moment killing Sammael, with no more thought that she gave to snuffing Aran'gar, and yet you somehow make as if she considers herself to be the lesser of the two ... ???!!!
Would she feel the same way if she was facing Arangar? I doubt it.
Her response to both was almost identical. The difference is that Aran'gar was distracted and unprepared. Moghedien could have killed Aran'gar in that scene, and did so frequently in the War of Power when she undermined stronger opponents who ignored her.
Some refer to Moridin's thoughts in CoS that if Graendal tried to kill Sammael, one of them would die, and try to use that as an argument that Graendal and Sammael are pretty much equal in "power".
I disagree, and see it merely as Moridin acknowledging that battle is full of uncertainties, misfortune and random factors.
I disagree, and see it merely as Moridin acknowledging that battle is full of uncertainties, misfortune and random factors.
The quote is not vague, but you've turned it around to fit in with a flawed theory. Moridin clearly thinks that Graendal is a match for Sammael.
Balefire is also a great equaliser.
In which case all channelers are equal, and nothing can be debated anyway.
Usually the aggressor has the advantage of surprise, and to me the fact that Moridin believes that her attempt to kill Sammael might not be as successful as she makes it out to be, indicates that he is indirectly suggesting that she would be biting off more than she could chew in a confrontation with Sammael. Certainly if Sammael is in the Rahvin category of power, which is generally acknowledged to be the case.
LOL... what element of surprise? "Sammael I'll kill you if you say that to me again?"... she wasn't subtle at all!
Anyway, my point in this post is that Graendal overcoming Blathamel is not as big a deal as some might think, and that the respect Graendal displayed towards Rahvin and Ishamael's power put them in a totally different league to the lowly Arangar.
Which makes this the most flawed conclusion I've read for about a year. The idea that Graendal respects 'higher levels of power' is truly laughable when she's planning to enslave the Nae'blis and make him into a pet. You also have no proof of Aran'gar's strength in the Power or how he compares to Graendal. Graendal has openly attacked both Cyndane, Moghedien and Aran'gar and yet you still refuse to believe that she's one of the strongest of the Forsaken.
Most likely Graendal is of similar stature to Balthamel in One Power battle ability, but still somewhat short of the most powerful males.
Based on what? What about the most powerful females? Jordan specifically named six Forsaken who occupied the highest levels of the Shadow of whom three were men and three were women. Graendal has repeatedly proven that she can stand against any enemy directly. Of all of the Forsaken, her skill has been displayed the most openly, and yet you still cling to the belief that men like Ishamael, Demandred and Sammael are superior and more powerful Forsaken despite convincingly unimpressive performances throughout the series compared to her.
Rahvin could not have been so idiotic as to be sure that he could overwhelm Lanfear herself face to face in FoH, if in fact he would struggle to overcome Graendal, who is at least two levels below Lanfear's strength. If he is that stupid, it is utterly surprising that he has survived for so long.
He could probably give Lanfear or Graendal a good run for their money, and they could do the same for him. The fact that every Forsaken thinks that they're vastly superior to the other twelve is part of their personae.
Basically, my One Power confrontation rankings remain with Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael and Rahvin at the top, and Graendal and Semirhage slightly below them, with the rest probably following behind these 7.
Agreed! Because Graendal killing a male Forsaken in the new book is strong evidence that she truly belongs in the dustbin with the others like Be'lal.
As for the infamous top 6 Forsaken - well - their positions combined great political and great physical ability, and Lews Therin himself has freely stated that Graendal's manipulative abilities are supposedly unmatched among the Forsaken, so that would surely compensate for her lesser face to face "Battle strength" among the strongest males.
Yeah, the other 'six' clearly outshone Graendal at the Cleansing, where she used diplomacy and trickery against Verin and her circle. And of course, directly going for Aran'gar is further evidence that she doesn't have 'battle strength'.
She is strong enough to make the result of a contest at least contain a small element of doubt. But she would be more likely than not to lose, if the battle was against the most formiddable Forsaken channelers:
Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael and Rahvin.
Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael and Rahvin.
Rahvin never was as great as Graendal as the author said. All of the others have died except Demandred, and Graendal survives. She's also the only one who has directly fought other members of the Forsaken without losing. Your theories on strength are seriously flawed here, Shannow. Just because you don't like Graendal doesn't mean you should detract from her prowess. You'd see anything short of her dueling Rand or Moridin as a duel of circumstance. Her duel with Aran'gar wasn't actually a duel at all, but it did prove that she can and will handle a male Forsaken if she needs to, and could make good on threats she made in the direction of Sammael or Lanfear if they baited her.
The more logical conclusion - which would align perfectly to all the previous evidence - is that Graendal simply made use of her angreal in the ToM scene. This ON TOP of Graendal striking at Arangar unexpectedly makes any suggestion that she is somehow superior to Arangar in battle totally unsubstantiated.
My view therefore stands.
I'm glad it stands. I think if the War of Power broke out today and you managed to become a male Forsaken, you'd be one of Graendal's first pets. Lews Therin even warned Nynaeve and Min about guys like you.
Again and again and again, guys like you underestimate Graendal because you're too fixated on guys like Demandred, and before you know it you'd be licking her ankles and being used as a human table.
Thanks, but I'd err on the side of caution and respect towards this woman any day. The series is literally exploding with evidence in that regard.
I don't know if you realize how you actively mould scenes to suit your opinion, Shannow? At the very least you should say that the six he mentioned are equal in danger, and you could even add others. Trying to prove that the one who has really been the most pro-active in terms of combat is actually less than she is, is something silly to do.
There's a very good chance she'll be revealed as Asmodean's killer, which means that she was prepared to fight another male Forsaken not knowing about his shield. It's all speculation to say that she is the killer, but I can already imagine you saying that Asmodean was the weakest male, or was unskilled etc.. just to drive home this weak point that Graendal is no big deal.
Lews Therin has given his opinion on her. That is gold evidence. Standing on a soap box and shouting that Rahvin thinks he's better than Graendal is as sad as some guy insisting that computers will never come to anything.
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Fan of Lanfear
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This message last edited by Sidious on 28/09/2010 at 11:50:49 AM
One Power Battle ability...
- 27/09/2010 11:11:33 PM
1347 Views
I tire of this idiocy...
- 28/09/2010 01:02:17 AM
691 Views
Wow... talk about a long string of erroneous conclusions
- 28/09/2010 07:41:49 AM
727 Views
Interesting...
- 28/09/2010 08:14:14 AM
648 Views
Re: Interesting...
- 28/09/2010 11:48:16 AM
613 Views
Wow, Sidious!
- 28/09/2010 05:41:14 PM
492 Views
Re: Wow, Sidious!
- 28/09/2010 06:22:41 PM
473 Views
With respect, your and Fionwe's rantings are based largely on opinion as well - more so than mine...
- 28/09/2010 07:15:04 PM
569 Views
It's all blather - Any Forsaken can take out any other Forsaken. Even in a stand-up fight.
- 28/09/2010 02:08:13 PM
637 Views
I agree, most Forsaken will not 'arm wrestle' each other, they will kill. *NM*
- 28/09/2010 06:36:38 PM
188 Views
Agreed... Now when will the earthquake come? 
*NM*
- 28/09/2010 07:02:02 PM
197 Views
*NM*
- 28/09/2010 07:02:02 PM
197 Views
What earthquake? There is no proof of any earthquake! You're just prejudiced in favor of Egwene! *NM*
- 28/09/2010 07:25:19 PM
193 Views
There HAS to be an earthquake. You, me, RPA and Sidious agreed in one single thread! 
*NM*
- 28/09/2010 08:24:22 PM
202 Views
Yes, I GET it. My reply was an ironic commentary on our usual style correspondance. *NM*
- 28/09/2010 08:55:19 PM
234 Views
*NM*
- 28/09/2010 08:24:22 PM
202 Views
Yes, I GET it. My reply was an ironic commentary on our usual style correspondance. *NM*
- 28/09/2010 08:55:19 PM
234 Views