I'm not alone in that opinion. We've seen time and again how difficult shielding someone can be unless you are much stronger ... perhaps Aran'gar gasped because she looked at Graendal's face and say her fear. Perhaps it's as you say and Graendal wore her angreal and was actually that strong. But just assuming Graendal could cut her off unaided while Traveling and shielding another makes no sense.
If Aran'gar is as strong as Moghedien (in absolute terms), and Graendal is about as strong as Sammael/Demandred, I wouldn't be surprised if she could do all she did.
Delana is pathetically weak. She's not much stronger than Liandrin, and we saw how easily Moggy shielded her even when weakened by Healing. Plus, is it very likely Delana wouldn't dare hold the source in front of the Foresaken unless given permission. Thus, Graendal would have had to use very little to shield her.
If Aran'gar was definitely weaker than Graendal, Graendal would still be using the bulk of her power to shield Aran'gar. I'm arguing she's strong enough that she can make a small Gateway and shield a non-channeling Delana at the same time. It isn't so very impossible.
If she had her very weak angreal, this becomes still easier. In her next scene, we'll know if she has an angreal, clearing this confusion up.
But either way, if Graendal was say strength 95, and Aran'gar was about 70, then this scene works.
From Nyn and Moggy's battle in tSR, we know that you don't have to put your full strength into shielding someone as strong as you (since both women threw a shield at each other, and had enough left to block the other as well). Which means Graendal probably used around 60 strength on Aran'gar, around 15 or so for Delana (since you need even less to shield a woman not channeling) and used the other 20 strength for her Gateway.
In all probability, she used even less for the shield on Aran'gar.
I don't think a good case can be made for Aran'gar being as weak as Moghedien, or in that vicinity. Like Graendal, Aran'gar faced a large circle at the Cleansing and killed one of the members. There are hints that Balthamel was a very strong male, and I'd bet close to or equal to Graendal in power.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion
21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM
- 8392 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!!
21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM
- 2142 Views
A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM
- 1892 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird
21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM
- 1837 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM*
21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM
- 1114 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM*
21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM
- 1197 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!)
21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM
- 2003 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM*
21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM
- 1070 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM*
21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM
- 1063 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM*
21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM
- 1061 Views
Regarding Graendal
21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM
- 2184 Views
a very weak angreal
21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM
- 1710 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone.
21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM
- 1691 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream
21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM
- 1772 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM
- 1794 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply
21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM
- 1697 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not
21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM
- 1514 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not.
21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM
- 1623 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time?
21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM
- 1606 Views
I think so, yes.
21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM
- 1546 Views
I don't think so actually
21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM
- 1638 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling
21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM
- 1594 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM*
21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM
- 921 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd
22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM
- 1461 Views
So here's what happens...
21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM
- 1981 Views
Thanks. A few comments...
21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM
- 1474 Views
I don't rule out the angreal...
21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM
- 1510 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so...
21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM
- 1639 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time
21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM
- 1451 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving.
21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM
- 1486 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place
21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM
- 1500 Views
How did she know there was a shield?
21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM
- 1459 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source...
21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
- 1458 Views
Who said "they"?
21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM
- 1431 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe
21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM
- 1492 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded
21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM
- 1398 Views
Provide evidence?
21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM
- 1456 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder
21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM
- 1368 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect
22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM
- 1350 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal?
22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM
- 1584 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded.
22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM
- 2365 Views
So?
22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM
- 1292 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source
22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM
- 1397 Views
we don't know that
22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM
- 1429 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence...
22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM
- 1423 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her
22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM
- 1330 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand)
22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM
- 1439 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM
- 1415 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion.
22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM
- 1534 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too!
22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM
- 3456 Views
Well...
22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM
- 1471 Views
She says...
22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM
- 1466 Views
no one is arguing that
22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM
- 1414 Views
Er...
22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM
- 1367 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM
- 2193 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded
22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM
- 2157 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong
22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM
- 1420 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM
- 1508 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough.
23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM
- 1407 Views
23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM
- 1410 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong!
23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM
- 1532 Views
Really?
23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM
- 1488 Views
Re: Really?
23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM
- 1362 Views
That's my point *NM*
24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM
- 968 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM*
24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM
- 989 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both
22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM
- 1390 Views
Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM
- 1490 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM
- 1351 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then...
22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM
- 1371 Views
Nope
22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM
- 1270 Views
Re: Nope
23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM
- 1422 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to
23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM
- 1302 Views
Well...
23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM
- 1487 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM
- 1615 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal
25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM
- 1458 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene
25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM
- 1469 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield?
24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM
- 1404 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM*
24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM
- 1079 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well
21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM
- 1402 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM*
21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM
- 1012 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM*
22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM
- 964 Views
Well, exactly!
22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM
- 1459 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal
22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM
- 1678 Views
What I think happened
22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM
- 1429 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM
- 1380 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue...
22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM
- 1463 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM
- 2478 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source...
22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM
- 2917 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate...
22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM
- 1372 Views
she never shielded them
22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM
- 1372 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both...
22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM
- 1324 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM
- 1428 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned
22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM
- 1380 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too..
22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM
- 1465 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there...
22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM
- 1304 Views
Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM
- 1375 Views
Re: Mostly agree
22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM
- 1337 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM
- 1437 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place...
22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM
- 1479 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally
22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM
- 1392 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha
22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM
- 1421 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this
21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM
- 1642 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal.
21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM
- 1521 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM
- 940 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time...
01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM
- 1412 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene...
21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM
- 1505 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself!
21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM
- 1495 Views
I'm happy there wasn't...
21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM
- 1526 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM
- 1485 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power?
21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM
- 1620 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series...
21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM
- 1371 Views
For the record
21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM
- 1569 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM*
22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM
- 1089 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump?
22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM
- 1599 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though.
22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM
- 1467 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place?
22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM
- 1623 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM*
22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM
- 990 Views
I tend to agree
23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM
- 1432 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex
24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM
- 2046 Views
Yes, but its still a little off
25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM
- 1480 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand?
22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM
- 1601 Views
Aran'gar is a tool
22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM
- 1639 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM
- 1426 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max...
22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM
- 1375 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party...
22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM
- 1321 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead?
23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM
- 1492 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM*
23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM
- 982 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM*
23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM
- 954 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM
- 1564 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO
23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM
- 1530 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer
25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM
- 1581 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part
23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM
- 2178 Views
No way
24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM
- 1447 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out
12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM
- 1595 Views