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Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM
If she wasn't holding saidin, and a shield was placed on her, she would know about it only if she tried to reach for the source. But the way it is written, the reaction was clearly immediate. Graendal hadn't even begus weaving the bonds of Air before the women gasped. Delana knew there was a shield, so that explains her. But Aran'gar? Given the time frame, it seems Aran'gar was holding the source.

And I don't see that as contradictory to anything we know. Aran'gar was strong, but nothing indicates that Graendal wasn't stronger. To the contrary, in fact. Her being able to shield Aran'gar isn't all that impossible, though with a Gateway open and another shield to make might be a little difficult.


No one can do that unaided. Not even Rand. Rand cannot even shield a single male Forsaken in a direct attempt if the Forsaken is already holding the Source. He would have to overcome him in a One Power battle first, or else engage in a duel of Spirit of unknown duration (like Nynaeve and Moghedien, Rand and Lanfear or Nynaeve and Talaan).

There is no way that Graendal could have shielded Arangar unaided if Arangar was already holding the Source, let alone shield Arangar and an Aes Sedai simultaneously.

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Towers of Midnight : Prologue discussion fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 04:38:40 AM 8399 Views
Me Too! Guess who is alive!! PatAtt - 21/09/2010 04:44:40 AM 2150 Views
A dove, that's weird BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 03:19:10 PM 1898 Views
Re: A dove, that's weird Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:26:39 PM 1846 Views
Yes, that's the point BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:49:00 PM 1697 Views
It did feel a bit deus ex machina Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:03:05 AM 1805 Views
What Ryan said. And we only assumed that they can only use those animals *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:53:05 PM 1115 Views
Fain is as creepy as ever PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:06:35 AM 1920 Views
You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:10:47 AM 1199 Views
Re: You all can go to heck (and find me a link!) PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:14:26 AM 2011 Views
It's D/L on B&N now *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 05:15:44 AM 1099 Views
Anyone find the audiobook version? *NM* Yuri - 21/09/2010 10:20:22 AM 1071 Views
If you're in the US, Audible.com. No clue about availability in the UK. *NM* RandAllThor - 21/09/2010 06:29:45 PM 1064 Views
I love the borderlanders PatAtt - 21/09/2010 05:25:29 AM 1879 Views
Best scene of the prologue *NM* Ryan - 21/09/2010 03:28:28 PM 1154 Views
Could somebody post a link to where they got it? I want to go to a site where I can download now *NM* Guava - 21/09/2010 05:39:13 AM 1064 Views
I posted some links here PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:04:38 AM 1746 Views
My quick summary PatAtt - 21/09/2010 06:02:41 AM 2517 Views
Whoa, whoa, whoa. DREWRULESWOT! - 23/09/2010 02:59:37 AM 1592 Views
It's good, but... Perrin. Ugh. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:37:43 AM 1929 Views
Awesome! Ryan - 21/09/2010 09:00:45 AM 1686 Views
Regarding Graendal Sidious - 21/09/2010 10:12:42 AM 2187 Views
Some things... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 01:18:10 PM 1757 Views
I'm glad. Being right is a good feeling RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:12:08 PM 1701 Views
a very weak angreal darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 04:55:15 PM 1715 Views
Even a weak angreal malekithe - 21/09/2010 05:47:26 PM 1650 Views
The Angreal Elayne mentions made her 2x as strong as Nynaeve darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 06:04:21 PM 1526 Views
Graendal watched Aran'gar get nuked. Aran'gar is gone gone gone. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:11:41 PM 1696 Views
The laughter in Perrin's Dream Syraelle - 21/09/2010 02:24:14 PM 1775 Views
Probably Slayer RugbyPlayingAshaman - 21/09/2010 04:29:41 PM 1653 Views
Re: Probably Slayer Syraelle - 21/09/2010 04:39:36 PM 1455 Views
Audio Book Matt_at_Heart - 21/09/2010 06:39:54 PM 1591 Views
Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... Shannow - 21/09/2010 06:46:42 PM 1798 Views
It's different (I think?) but I'm certainly no expert and I'm sure someone else will reply Deadsy - 21/09/2010 06:57:18 PM 1701 Views
OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:00:23 PM 1517 Views
Re: OK, I haven't read the scene, so I don't know if Arangar was holding saidin at the time or not. Deadsy - 21/09/2010 07:11:42 PM 1626 Views
Thanks. Was Arangar channeling at the time? Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:13:53 PM 1611 Views
I think so, yes. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:44 PM 1550 Views
I don't think so actually darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:57:42 PM 1642 Views
I don't think Aran'gar was channeling Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:00:22 PM 1600 Views
I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd *NM* BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:52:01 PM 922 Views
Re: I don't think she even closed her Gateway. It think it was BF'd Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:57:02 AM 1465 Views
no she wasn't *NM* Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:25:13 PM 1036 Views
nope, no power newyorkersedai - 23/09/2010 03:05:30 AM 1477 Views
So here's what happens... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:15:03 PM 1984 Views
Thanks. A few comments... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:27:33 PM 1477 Views
I don't rule out the angreal... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:32:40 PM 1513 Views
Elayne's weakest angreal doubles her strength. Graendal x2 can easily shield Cyndane+Moggy, so... Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:06 PM 1642 Views
Graendal's seemed much weaker... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:20 PM 1513 Views
Elayne also called the x2 turtle angreal "weak"... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:00:01 PM 1518 Views
and we know it wasn't enough to overwhlem Verin's circle darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 08:02:13 PM 1360 Views
I disasgree. There is no evidence that Aran'gar was holding saidin at the time darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:42:23 PM 1454 Views
Then why did she gasp at the shield? She couldn't have known what Graendal was weaving. fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 07:52:49 PM 1490 Views
because she was surprised that Graendal would put a shield on her in the first place darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:58:45 PM 1504 Views
How did she know there was a shield? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:16:59 PM 1462 Views
Fact: Graendal cannot shield a male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai if they are holding the Source... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:28:17 PM 1460 Views
Who said "they"? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:55:28 PM 1436 Views
Depends on the level of surprise, I guess. If he was only holding a trickle of saidin, then maybe Shannow - 21/09/2010 10:05:37 PM 1495 Views
I don't think strength is the only determinant... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:24:24 PM 1463 Views
I really don't think you have to be holding the source to know you've been shielded Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:29:20 PM 1405 Views
Provide evidence? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:36:36 PM 1459 Views
Thanks, but like I said, they were both wrapped in air. That's enough for Aran'gar to wonder Deadsy - 21/09/2010 10:44:17 PM 1371 Views
They gasped before Graendal wove Air... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:13:48 PM 1438 Views
Alright, you win *NM* Deadsy - 22/09/2010 02:51:26 AM 970 Views
*NM* fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:06:22 AM 835 Views
Siuan was distracted by a number of other things going on, not to mention how suspect darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:43:36 PM 1355 Views
And Aran'gar was fully focussed on Graendal? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:02:16 PM 1589 Views
More so than Siuan was on Elaida when they were shielded. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:33:15 PM 2369 Views
So? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:48:11 PM 1295 Views
It doesn't matter. There are more Shieldings that go unnoticed when not holding the Source Mik - 22/09/2010 03:55:48 PM 1401 Views
Nice catches! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 04:06:52 PM 1496 Views
we don't know that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 02:35:50 PM 1435 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 03:03:52 PM 1378 Views
Give over, Darius... there's plenty of evidence... Mik - 22/09/2010 03:45:11 PM 1427 Views
Give over what? There is no hard evidence that Aran'gar wouldn't notice a shield put on her darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:00:11 PM 1333 Views
What rot... (also, Egwene and Rand) fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:21:08 PM 1442 Views
take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:38:21 PM 1418 Views
Re: take a pill Fionwe ... no need to go batshit on me for having an opinion. Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:45:05 PM 1537 Views
if it was JUST one shield ... but she's shielding an AS and weaving a Gateway too! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:48:52 PM 3461 Views
Well... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:00:26 PM 1476 Views
She says... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:04:32 PM 1472 Views
no one is arguing that darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:09:17 PM 1415 Views
Er... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:19:09 PM 1372 Views
I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:20:48 PM 2198 Views
Re: I'm contending that it's possible Aran'gar snesed she'd been shielded Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:26:52 PM 2163 Views
Again, I just find that option completely unlikely since Graendals angreal isn't all that strong darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:39:02 PM 1425 Views
You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:53:25 AM 1513 Views
Re: You've made a long list of channelers "incompetant" and "untrained". Enough. darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:42:31 PM 1411 Views
fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:54:02 PM 1415 Views
Re: . The evidence is that no channeled is that strong! darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 04:04:02 PM 1537 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 06:11:00 PM 1493 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:56:09 PM 1365 Views
That's my point *NM* darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 12:20:45 AM 969 Views
Dear God! The sheer amount of replies here just blew my mind, and my window (jk). *NM* Bookwyrm - 24/09/2010 07:28:14 PM 990 Views
Y o u' r e h u r t i n g m y s c r o l l b a r *NM* Marshall - 24/09/2010 11:30:27 PM 985 Views
Re: She says... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:12:48 PM 1419 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 01:54:05 AM 1402 Views
The way it reads she is holding open a Gateway, then slams shields on both darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:08:17 PM 1393 Views
Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 05:46:19 PM 1493 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:53:05 PM 1355 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:03:02 PM 1374 Views
Nope darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:19:30 PM 1274 Views
Re: Nope fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 02:06:35 AM 1427 Views
Toveine! Now THAT is a good catch, fionwe! Mik - 23/09/2010 07:57:05 AM 1538 Views
Sidious pointed it out, actually. But thanks! fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:55:29 PM 1415 Views
And you ignore all the evidence in the series that definitively makes it impossible for Graendal to darius_sedai - 23/09/2010 03:57:49 PM 1306 Views
Well... Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:31:27 PM 1489 Views
According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:18:30 PM 1619 Views
Re: According to Fionwe she isn't using the angreal Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:38:41 AM 1466 Views
Possible, but he specifically calls out when she ties off other weaves in the scene darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:28:48 PM 1475 Views
Re: Continue being irrational then... iHeartGraendal - 24/09/2010 03:20:49 AM 1582 Views
Oh come on.. be real Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:39:51 PM 1383 Views
see that's an argument that makes more sense to me darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 05:47:17 PM 1465 Views
Re: How did she know there was a shield? Gee69 - 24/09/2010 04:42:25 AM 1407 Views
You can sense the source when shielded. Entering a stedding you can't even sense it. *NM* Myrdhyn - 24/09/2010 02:46:09 PM 1080 Views
You'[re missing the part about the bonds of air as well Ryan - 21/09/2010 11:06:04 PM 1405 Views
No. The sequence was shield-gasp-tie off shield-wrap in Air. *NM* fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 11:14:41 PM 1014 Views
We have seen people holding the source caught off guard by a shield *NM* Ryan - 22/09/2010 12:10:48 AM 966 Views
Well, exactly! fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:01:12 AM 1462 Views
Aran'gar and Delana were caught with their pants down by Graendal Ryan - 22/09/2010 06:40:41 AM 1681 Views
What I think happened Sidious - 22/09/2010 09:19:57 AM 1432 Views
It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Shannow - 22/09/2010 10:06:47 AM 1384 Views
Re: It's not the male/female issue. It's a Forsaken vs Forsaken issue... Sidious - 22/09/2010 01:31:52 PM 1466 Views
Fair point. Shannow - 22/09/2010 02:07:05 PM 1451 Views
I think it also bears mentioning that ... Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:17:17 PM 1464 Views
Graendal knew Aran'gar was distracted malekithe - 23/09/2010 07:10:52 AM 1376 Views
About shielding a channeler holding the Source... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 05:51:34 PM 2483 Views
Re: About shielding a channeler holding the Source... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:04:37 PM 2922 Views
The angreal makes this an unnecessary debate... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:09:20 PM 1377 Views
she never shielded them darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:22:29 PM 1377 Views
True...But it made her strong enough to easily overcome both... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:28:12 PM 1328 Views
This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:51:19 PM 1432 Views
Re: This I can believe ... it's just problematic since the angreal isn't mentioned Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:54:18 PM 1385 Views
LMAO... nice! darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:24:20 PM 1403 Views
I think we need to place Aran'gar lower too.. fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 07:10:29 PM 1470 Views
A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:13:51 PM 1308 Views
I would agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:22:50 PM 1460 Views
Re: I would agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:25:46 PM 1321 Views
Re: A lot of unsubstantiated assumptions there... fionwe1987 - 23/09/2010 03:03:26 AM 1395 Views
Mostly agree darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 07:23:53 PM 1381 Views
Re: Mostly agree Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:28:42 PM 1342 Views
Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:34:21 PM 1442 Views
Re: Ever wonder why Graendal was given an angreal in the first place... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:50:55 PM 1482 Views
I am starting to believe that RJ didn't think quite so literally darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 08:07:45 PM 1397 Views
Not sure if you agreed with this before, but I reached this point awhile ago bwahaha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:53:42 PM 1428 Views
I've been on this side for a good long while darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 09:40:43 PM 1526 Views
*NM* alanna aes sedai - 28/09/2010 11:54:54 PM 924 Views
Well there is one thing to consider about this darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 07:32:44 PM 1643 Views
Yes, that seems the most likely answer. That and the use of the angreal. Shannow - 21/09/2010 07:35:53 PM 1525 Views
Aren't female channelers more dexterous in weaving than male? So her speed could be part of that. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:42:56 AM 941 Views
Re: Not even Ishamael could shield another male Forsaken and an Aes Sedai at the same time... The Angry Druid - 01/10/2010 12:23:57 AM 1413 Views
I'm disappointed that the dove was not hidden in a background description in the tGS scene... Shannow - 21/09/2010 08:22:29 PM 1508 Views
I was thinking the same thing ... was actually just about to go look for it myself! darius_sedai - 21/09/2010 09:01:34 PM 1500 Views
I'm happy there wasn't... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:18:30 PM 1529 Views
Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:23:48 PM 1488 Views
Re: Do you have more detail on Graendal's comments about Aginor's extensive use of the True Power? fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 09:52:07 PM 1621 Views
Very interesting. Another case of a character never utilised to his full potential in the series... Shannow - 21/09/2010 09:57:42 PM 1374 Views
True... fionwe1987 - 21/09/2010 10:02:59 PM 1373 Views
So there are 6 Forsaken left. Tom - 21/09/2010 10:23:22 PM 1682 Views
For the record Heiko - 21/09/2010 10:53:16 PM 1573 Views
She opened two Gateways, IIRC BlackAdder - 21/09/2010 11:58:29 PM 1461 Views
Re: She opened two Gateways, IIRC Heiko - 22/09/2010 02:21:47 AM 1493 Views
I am so glad Graendal is alive. I (& hopefully other "Graendal's Alive" supporters) feel vindicated. *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 03:01:07 AM 1090 Views
Did anyone else feel that the Graendal scene was one big infodump? Marshall - 22/09/2010 03:32:44 AM 1604 Views
That's exactly what I was thinking the entire time. It didn't ruin my enjoyment though. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:12:00 PM 1469 Views
Wait...so NO ONE has wanted to discuss the Sapphic scene at Graendal's place? Tom - 22/09/2010 03:48:36 AM 1626 Views
yes, totally Lesbian. *NM* darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:04:16 PM 970 Views
No, the other L word. "LesbiAHNS?" *NM* Bookwyrm - 22/09/2010 04:18:55 PM 1025 Views
Yes, it was totally lesbian. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:09:19 PM 1430 Views
No, not at all. Aran'gar is still a dude at heart. I think. *NM* BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:18:55 PM 991 Views
I tend to agree Sidious - 23/09/2010 05:42:52 PM 1435 Views
Lady parts + Lady parts = Lesbian sex darius_sedai - 24/09/2010 11:24:36 PM 2050 Views
Yes, but its still a little off Sidious - 25/09/2010 09:40:16 AM 1486 Views
Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 04:41:33 PM 1635 Views
Re: Transgender is a little convoluted I suppose Sidious - 25/09/2010 05:25:10 PM 1539 Views
What does Graendal think of Rand? Sidious - 22/09/2010 02:00:28 PM 1605 Views
She was really surprised and scared. Rurouni_Kenshin - 22/09/2010 02:11:28 PM 1567 Views
I take it you haven't read the Prologue. Tom - 22/09/2010 02:16:49 PM 1446 Views
Quite a bit... fionwe1987 - 22/09/2010 02:31:14 PM 1609 Views
Agreed, she's been worrying about him since the begining darius_sedai - 22/09/2010 03:18:48 PM 1642 Views
Thanks for the answers *NM* Sidious - 22/09/2010 05:46:05 PM 931 Views
Second best prologue ever... lilltempest - 22/09/2010 06:24:44 PM 1831 Views
It's my favorite ever. Only one dark spot tarnished it. Myrdhyn - 22/09/2010 07:18:12 PM 1476 Views
Yeah, tEotW is the best... BlackAdder - 22/09/2010 08:22:12 PM 1506 Views
Aran'gar is a tool Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:31:36 PM 1644 Views
I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:36:09 PM 1429 Views
Re: I would think this argues against your contention that she would hold saidin to the max... Sidious - 22/09/2010 07:51:53 PM 1378 Views
Remembering the last time male channelers held reversed weaves in the presence of Rand's party... Shannow - 22/09/2010 07:55:12 PM 1324 Views
Yes. s/He was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/09/2010 08:59:16 PM 1478 Views
Shadow invading Kandor and Lan riding trough it. CONNECTION? 4th Dimension - 22/09/2010 08:36:05 PM 1637 Views
Are Fain's resurrected trollocks undead? RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 01:43:01 AM 1496 Views
After 13 books you still can't spell "trollocs"...wow...that's just...wow... *NM* Tom - 23/09/2010 03:41:24 PM 984 Views
Thanks for taking up space on this board to point out my shortcomings. Always appreciated. *NM* RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 05:23:19 PM 955 Views
Sidious - 23/09/2010 04:47:11 PM 1546 Views
Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Etzel - 23/09/2010 05:45:41 PM 1569 Views
Re: Nice prologue, but not superb, IMO Sidious - 23/09/2010 09:54:33 PM 1533 Views
Well, that is one prediction I made correctly! Etzel would find a way to make it look like Slayer darius_sedai - 25/09/2010 05:43:20 PM 1589 Views
I believe that Sanderson concocted the entire Graendal/Rand/Balefire part Marshall - 23/09/2010 10:24:46 PM 2184 Views
I had a similar thought, but... RandAllThor - 23/09/2010 10:40:58 PM 1489 Views
Probably not Sanderson 4th Dimension - 23/09/2010 11:11:54 PM 1524 Views
No way Rurouni_Kenshin - 24/09/2010 07:14:35 AM 1452 Views
I can't see team Jordan allowing any deviation on what RJ would have laid out darius_sedai - 12/10/2010 08:32:50 PM 1604 Views
I agree. *NM* Etzel - 25/09/2010 09:42:46 AM 980 Views
A few nits Terez - 12/10/2010 10:21:27 AM 1455 Views
Canadian Download site alanna aes sedai - 29/09/2010 12:05:12 AM 1949 Views
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