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It's not a rational thing, to my way of thinking. Phelix Send a noteboard - 09/09/2010 01:24:23 AM
Noting the fact that most women spend about 20 years as novices and accepted, giving them the time they need to grow to their full power, to me, there must be a reason for that situation.

It cannot take most women 20 years to learn everything they need to know about the Tower and the World. Siuan, Moiraine, and Elaida all did it in six years total, and they come from wildly varying backgrounds. One a fisherman's daughter, one the niece of a King, the other a minor noble. If just Moiraine and Elaida progressed that quickly, we could chalk it up to their superior education as nobility in all things political, historical, etc. But because Siuan also progressed just as rapidly, it shows that a woman can achieve all the skill and knowledge needed in less than a single decade, not the average of two.

So, again, looking for a reason, I thought about what changes for a woman over that decade or more during which she is supposedly still learning. The only thing I could pinpoint is her strength in the Power. We're told that women achieve their strength in a linear scale over time. We were also told that Moiraine and Siuan were no where near their full potential when they were raised. From that, we can extrapolate that most women will not be anywhere near their full potential when they have been studying for six years at the normal pace of the Tower.

So why not let them grow into their strength as Aes Sedai, like Siuan and Moiraine, and Elaida for that matter, did?

Because Aes Sedai play the game among themselves. Aes Sedai know who they can order about, whom they must listen to, and to whom they must bow, and they base that entire system on strength in the Power.

Now, say you raise a woman like Moiraine who is one of the strongest of her generation, who learned faster than any woman before her, but raise her when she is at half of her full potential. Stronger women will insist that she obey them, knowing full well she will outrank them within years, and your strong, young Aes Sedai will see that Strength is a horrible means of judging who should lead.

If she is brought in at her final position, that will be all she knows. If she is brought in while at 1/2 potential, she will see her opinions gain more weight, see as people re-evaluate her, based solely on an inborn characteristic.

Someone who is opinionated, and not afraid to share it, could easily overset the whole process by calling attention to the fact that they treat wise, capable women as little more than servants simply because of their relative weakness.

The base fear would be introducing uncertainty into the system. These women will grow and change their positions while still Aes Sedai, which could lead to other changes, and change is bad (per normal Aes Sedai thinking).

IIRC, novices and accepted generally spend about a decade in each rank, twenty years in total. We see that women who climb the ranks faster achieve the shawl before they've reached their full potential.

It occurred to me that the average length of time a girl spends as a novice and as an Accepted could be a result of the Aes Sedai's hierarchy system. If girls were promoted to Accepted or the Shawl before they reached their full strength, it would mean that they would spend the next few years slowly gaining in rank and influence, and that the sisters they interacted with would have to keep in mind both their potential and their actual strength in the Power.
I don't see the reasoning here. Why would the Aes Sedai want to avoid promoting them before they gained their full strength? How does a sister starting at a lower place in the hierarchy than she will eventually end up negatively affect the sisters that they would want to make her take her place in what would be her permanent place in the hierarchy? I would think, especially since you seem to be suggesting it is the higher-strength girls who motivate this supposed policy, they would actually PREFER them to start out lower. At least when they are lower in strength it is easier to subordinate their noob-natures and make them submit. If they are eventually going to be near the top of the hierarchy, why would you want to hold them back so they can start out as brand-new sisters, who outrank all but the officials in the Tower, and can talk smack to almost any sister in the Tower?

Rather, I would think that when they get a girl who is destined to be one of the highest-ranking sisters in the hierarchy, they would promote her when she was still weak enough to be given orders and have to accept guidance from women who are still her betters, even if they soon will not be.

I doubt it was ever a public decision, or even an active one. Rather, I think the time girls spend in gaining the shawl is a function of their training and the mindset of the Aes Sedai in power at the time.

I would assume that during the Trolloc Wars, when they trained girls hard and fast, more girls were forced to reach their full potential more quickly, and were promoted more quickly as well.
Really? Because the one source I know about their behavior at the time regarding initiates was that they kept a woman who was fully qualified to be a sister in the kitchens for a year or two as punishment for a minor rules violation. For partaking of a privilege exclusively reserved to sisters one day early, she was withheld from useful work during a time of the greatest crisis in 1,000 years! Unless the BWB or RJ said something to the effect that they hastened girls through the system in those days, Birgitte's memory of Barashelle suggests it was business as usual for the Tower.

During Hawkwing's siege, we would probably see a similar effect, because Aes Sedai outside the tower were dying, and those inside the tower had nothing else to do but train younger girls, so they probably progressed more quickly than girls in times of peace.

The Aes Sedai in power during those times wouldn't be consciously thinking about where the upcoming girls would fit into the hierarchy, but they would have that ranking system in the back of their minds when judging if a girl was ready to be promoted.
And as I understand you, you are claiming their thought process was: "Better not promote her now when she will be the 138th highest sister in the Tower. We should rather wait until she has reached her full strength which will put her somewhere in the top 20." I just don't see that rationale.
I was Phelix on wotmania, I will always be Phelix in the "real" world, and now I am Phelix on RAFO.

You will make all kinds of mistakes; but as long as you are generous and true and also fierce you cannot hurt the world or even seriously distress her.- Churchill

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Ages for Novices and Accepted - 08/09/2010 10:20:29 AM 1243 Views
Re: Ages for Novices and Accepted - 08/09/2010 01:01:36 PM 942 Views
I don't see how that would prevent them from being promoted. - 09/09/2010 01:09:14 AM 933 Views
It's not a rational thing, to my way of thinking. - 09/09/2010 01:24:23 AM 823 Views
You might be right about the strength, hierarchy & advancement, but for other reasons, IMO... - 09/09/2010 07:20:53 AM 818 Views
You're right... - 09/09/2010 11:40:40 PM 803 Views
Re: You're right... - 10/09/2010 06:24:26 AM 654 Views
Something else to consider - 09/09/2010 06:29:54 PM 1000 Views
The answer lies in which way it goes. - 09/09/2010 08:04:28 PM 685 Views

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