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Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true DomA Send a noteboard - 27/07/2010 04:26:31 AM
In any case, I woudn't be surprised SH overlooked the CK. We know what it was, Elza knew what it was, but nothing suggests SH knew what it was.


Maybe. I guess we will (hopefully) find out eventually. :)



Maybe., although I'm a bit afraid it sounds like a typical situation for which, previously in the series, RJ left us draw our own conclusions and never clarified an issue (he tended to do that a lot whenever it's a matter of giving too concrete explanations about what Shai'tan does or want).

It might be why Brandon is so uneasy to confirm anything. Jordan didn't spell it out, and by pointing out to Semirhage's comment, Brandon is giving us his opinion of the most likely explanation, but he won't commit himself since he doesn't know for sure. It's not really a good time to come out and tell us "you'll never know the answer, but personally I think Semirhage was probably right".



Maybe. Though Elza is described as looking dazed by Rand, as though someone had hit her in the head with a club.


While I assumed she was in that state after experiencing Shaidar Haran then Semirhage back-to-back.

Also remember that Semirhage is a master-healer, one of the foremost in all of AoL, and Verin's compulsion was a very simple and crude.


Verin's weave was in truth described as extremely complex (it wasn't crude, she was just weaving extremely slowly and cautiously, because it was so complex), perhaps in the fact it was "patch-up" even more complex if less efficient than Chosen-style compulsion (though its effects had limitations full compulsion as the Chosen do it don't have) and she was also convinced it left no trace for delving. Graendal too is able to weave very subtle and virtually undetectable compulsion, only not when she weaves it like a hammer...

Verin's was not quite the compulsion weave Semirhage was familiar with either. It's quite possible Semirhage delved Elza and decided to wait because she was puzzled by the weave (especially if Verin was right it was almost undetectable) and had no time to figure it out for certain. Notice that even as a top Restorer Semirhage wasn't looking forward to unravel compulsion because it failed so often, even for her. Most times it works much like what happened to Nynaeve when she tried. She unravelled it, but the person died. A failed attempt might have jeopardized the mission. Perhaps Semirhage knows weaves to stimulate repressed memories and get Elza to become conscious of what the compelled orders were. Knowing that, she would have no need to try to unravel the "weird compulsion" on Elza anymore.

Semirhage also has tricks to make sure if Elza would obey her or if her compulsion would interfere. Those tricks might explain Elza's dazed state!

Also, given that Semirhage knows the order to remove Elza's compulsion came from SH, would she really have decided to delay it out of her own initiative?


If she feared enough she might fail, yes she would I think. Better tell SH "I can't do it safely, I need her for the DB" than fail and tell SH "Oops... do you have any other woman available to complete the mission?".



I think Elza's uneasiness was not really caused by compulsion, but rather by the fact that even she was horrified by what Semirhage was doing. She suddenly realised that she was over her head, and that scared her.


It's a valid explanation as well. We have to pick the one we prefer, as for this we'll never get a straight answer in the books (unless from a Q&A, and that'd be quite a useless question to ask!)

That bit about compulsion had one purpose only: to show us that even Semirhage had very serious misgivings about unravelling compulsion. That was there strictly to raise the stakes for Nynaeve later, and foreshadow that Rand had asked her almost the impossible, because even Semirhage didn't like attempting it. It doesn't really matter if Semirhage tried and succeeded or delayed until after the mission, that is.. we were not supposed to know for sure.
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foreshadowing of Semirhage's death - 25/07/2010 07:13:48 AM 1578 Views
I don't think that Semirhage was sacrificed - 25/07/2010 08:36:47 AM 790 Views
No, too tired to give reasons... *NM* - 25/07/2010 09:30:46 AM 240 Views
Re: No, too tired to give reasons... *NM* - 26/07/2010 01:19:26 AM 247 Views
I disagree about the TP aspect - 25/07/2010 03:30:37 PM 698 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 25/07/2010 04:03:45 PM 690 Views
It's an interesting theory in either direction - 25/07/2010 04:54:31 PM 631 Views
Re: It's an interesting theory in either direction - 26/07/2010 02:17:35 AM 492 Views
You can't expect BS to give away things with 2 books to go. - 26/07/2010 01:48:37 AM 562 Views
Re: You can't expect BS to give away things with 2 books to go. - 26/07/2010 02:24:29 AM 514 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 26/07/2010 01:22:30 AM 526 Views
Re: I disagree about the TP aspect - 26/07/2010 02:30:11 AM 503 Views
^^^what Datakim said^^^ - 26/07/2010 06:58:02 PM 521 Views
I don't know if Semirhage was sacrificed or not. Either way the Semirhage quote set up tGS 6 books - 26/07/2010 02:29:59 AM 581 Views
You were right the first time - 26/07/2010 03:02:22 AM 628 Views
I think the question is... - 26/07/2010 08:27:17 AM 544 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 12:43:44 AM 527 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 01:15:29 AM 545 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 02:10:41 AM 518 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 03:17:01 AM 588 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 05:08:59 AM 587 Views
Re: I think the question is... - 27/07/2010 05:59:37 PM 544 Views
I'd say that there was a pre-meditated plan or backup plan to sacrifice Semirhage - 26/07/2010 09:02:44 AM 578 Views
I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 09:17:11 AM 509 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 12:10:43 PM 499 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 26/07/2010 12:27:11 PM 583 Views
But if this was the plan... - 26/07/2010 12:30:37 PM 503 Views
Moridin and SH knew that the CK could never defeat the dark one so they were happy to leave it - 26/07/2010 05:56:56 PM 563 Views
Unlikely, and stupid if true - 26/07/2010 06:12:30 PM 509 Views
That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth. - 27/07/2010 12:11:46 AM 467 Views
Re: That wasn't the Choedan Kal, that was Shadar Logoth. - 27/07/2010 01:29:29 AM 496 Views
I fail to see the relevance. *NM* - 27/07/2010 02:06:27 AM 226 Views
the relevance is that it was impossible without the CK - 27/07/2010 05:25:45 AM 441 Views
Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 05:37:28 AM 492 Views
Re: Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 03:00:51 PM 513 Views
Re: Are you certain? - 27/07/2010 06:17:59 PM 487 Views
key word is "necessary" *NM* - 27/07/2010 05:14:19 AM 209 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 01:36:53 AM 459 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 02:19:22 AM 498 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 02:43:39 AM 516 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:17:49 AM 520 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:39:07 AM 510 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 04:26:31 AM 522 Views
Something still doesn't make sense in that theory though - 27/07/2010 07:15:22 AM 573 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 01:44:19 AM 550 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 05:31:03 AM 472 Views
Re: Unlikely, and stupid if true - 27/07/2010 03:53:20 PM 508 Views
??? The CK in the hands of a madman is exactly what the Dark One needs to destroy the pattern - 27/07/2010 07:01:13 AM 513 Views
So why not give it to Moridin then? - 27/07/2010 10:54:47 AM 512 Views
Re: I think SH simply didn't care about the CK access key - 27/07/2010 12:10:01 AM 468 Views
This has been seen and commented before, by myself and others. - 26/07/2010 03:36:51 PM 476 Views
Sorry I missed them. I would have been happy enough to comment there. - 27/07/2010 03:43:46 AM 487 Views
Considering there are years and years worth of comments... - 27/07/2010 02:49:42 PM 456 Views
Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series - 26/07/2010 04:27:14 PM 505 Views
Re: Hands up if you don't believe in foreshadowing in this series - 26/07/2010 10:34:18 PM 462 Views
Prophesying, but not foreshadowing. - 27/07/2010 12:06:06 AM 434 Views
You confuse foreshadowing and predictability - 27/07/2010 02:57:15 AM 798 Views
I agree with DomA *NM* *NM* - 27/07/2010 03:44:51 AM 222 Views
I don't believe in foreshadowing that you can figure out from the actual plot. - 27/07/2010 08:42:11 PM 472 Views

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