Why the half answer? Here's my full answer and the questions you missed..again..
Mik Send a noteboard - 26/07/2010 05:14:00 PM
Next time, please don't skip the parts where you were dead-wrong. they are kinda important to the overall picture. If you can't answer them and I can, doesn't that mean something?
We all want a total picture so we better understand these books, right?
So, could you please adress those points? I pasted them at the bottom of this reply....
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IIRC, we only see this SH 0.5. once before LoC in the beginning of TDR.
I think the first time we can be sure we see SHv0.5 on-screen is as far back as TEotW (Chapter 17 - Watchers and Hunters (funny coincidence in the chapter name, right?)). It's the smiling Myrddraal who merely talks, threatens and tries to influence Rand. Sounds like something Ishamael does in Rand's dreams.
That's after 8 (yes; eight) days into the story....
And that's not the only time people -me included- think there's a special Myrddraal showing up in the story. Whitebridge....Prologue of TGH....etc.
Considering that Ishamael was only partly-bound by the Sealing, couldn't it make sense just a teensy bit -with the Taint (a finite amount of the essence of Shai'tan) on saidin- and Myrddraal roaming free, that Ishamael has a link to Myrddraal?
And that it was this link that allowed a certain degree of freedom?
Or maybe I should pose a question; what set Ishamael apart this time for him to be only partly bound?
Then later in LoC (Chapter 30 - To Heal Again) "Halima" 'was told to mention a name to Delana: Aran'gar' and this is how Delana responds:
"Delana sat down heavily. That name had been mentioned in her dreams. For the first time in years, Delana Mosalaine was afraid."
That is on Nesan 23, not even a WoT-month (39 days) later then the Prologue of LoC. This was also the FIRST on-screen time the name Aran'gar was mentioned again since the prologue. There has always only been one walking the dreams of Darkfriends; Ishamael/ Moridin.
And as we know, Myrddraal don't dream. Who do you think visited Delana's dream somewhere during that month?
To me, this looks like Shaidar Haran / Moridin working on the same project again from the get-go.
Besides, when we do first see Moridin on-screen, his eyes already show the saa, which only show after a long period of extensive use.
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Yeah, Moridin sneaked, as we see when he is suddenly standing "very still", when Sammael seems to have heard him.Sammael didn't hear a thing. He just glanced behind him. A glance: "a hasty or brief look". It's not like he was investigating something he heard. Besides, the Watcher 'ghosted through trees without producing any sound'.
It's specifically mentioned the Watcher isn't making sound. It's not saying 'trying to move as soundlesly as possible or something like that. Even Aiel produce sound when stalking through woods. It's specifically mentioned that same chapter by Sevanna.
It just says he isn't producing sound, like we know a Myrddraal can do! It doesn't say it's stopped/ muted/ blocked/whatever.
Fancloth 'absorbing sound'? Classic! Maybe it makes you weigh less too... a little. And you're actually saying my arguments are weak? This is conjecture that's actually unsupported by what we know from the books.
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What you say makes hardly sense. If Moridin & SH are a combo like Slayer, each with their own thoughts, abilities and appearance, then there is no adapting needed. Moridin would always just have his own body, but could switch to SH and they would share their thoughts.Care to explain why Shaidar Haran in his own PoV think to itself as having eyes? When you think to yourself that "In your eyes, something looks a certain way, you are certainly referring to your visionairy capabilities.
I didn't write those precious few lines showing Shaidar Harans PoV. 13 lines to be exact. And in one of them, SH refers to it's eyes, while we all know, Myrddraal don't have any! Aint that a hoot?
How short sighted is that? Did you actually read what I wrote the previous post? I clearly explained that in chapter 20, it was noon on a sunny day and when we see Shaidar Haran in chapter 40 it's somewhere around dusk! (Grandael PoV: The sun sat
low behind the mountains to the west, half of a glowing red ball)
I also clearly explained that Myrddraal need 'deeper shadows' to become invisible.
Like I said earlier..; the mind bends to the body.
We see it happening between chapter 20 to 40;
from 'he/himself' and 'eyes/ eyebrows' to 'it/itself' and 'eyes'.
*shrugs*
Do me a favour and answer the hard parts about my answer..?
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Moridin can sense saidin (1) and see it glow around Sammael (2). The typical "prickling" tells him about saidar, as it is explicitely mentioned(3).(4)This answer is wrong in so many ways I don´t know where to begin!
1. A human male channeler can sense another human male channeler just holding the Source, but only at very close range. We don't know exactly how close, but from examples between Rand/ Asmo, Rahvin/ Sammael & Eben/ Aran'gar we know it's really close. Are you suggesting the Watcher was sitting on Sammaels back?
Even 50 feet is pushing the limits of human male channelers sensing one another. You think Moridin was trailing the deadly duo 'by the easy to follow red shiny silk dress' at 50 feet?!?
2. Human male channelers don't see a glow around other human male channelers. Plain wrong.
3. Again, the suggested range by the text is way too far off for a male human channeler to sense a female channeler merely holding the source! It just doesn't add up!
4. Most important of all. You didn't answer my question at all!
Regardless of how your explanation doesn't work for the Watcher to be able to sense both Sammael and Grandael, let's just suppose you were right for a second....
My question was: How did the Watcher sense the difference between the pair linking with Sammael leading the link or Sammael letting the link dissolve and the pair holding the Source seperately?
I'm willing to rephrase the question if you do not see the difference....
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The watcher obviously wasn't that far away.Hang on. It's specifically stated that the Watcher follows them by Grandaels shiny, silk, bright red dress (in a leafless forrest at noon), yet you suggest that's a lie? The Watcher lied to himself?
Got a suggestion then for how far off the Watcher was trailing Sammael & Grandael? A ballpark figure will do. Immagine yourself in a leafless forrest at noon trailing a couple by an easy-to-follow silk, shiny, red dress. (all straight from the text)
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1. PoV trap (enterrrr Cannoli!), even explained by Shaidar Haran in the LoC prologue himself (oh the irony!)
2. Wrong! There was no 'deeper shadow' to lurk and follow from. Talk about weak evidence. Myrddraal aren't invisible you know.
3. Wrong again. As seen by the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught Elayne, Egwene & Nyneave all three feel 'an Itch' when Egwene channels a hair-thin thread (from the top of my head..don't know what chapter..look it up).
And on top of that, "Shaidar Haran was no regular Myrddraal"...he smells & sees the One Power! Heck.. he's MORE aware of the OP then humans are.
We all want a total picture so we better understand these books, right?
So, could you please adress those points? I pasted them at the bottom of this reply....
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Common sense actually suggests there is more to it then your "As far as we know, Shai'tan took out SHv0,5 all by himself at about the same time that Ishamael died, for no apparent reason".
IIRC, we only see this SH 0.5. once before LoC in the beginning of TDR.
I think the first time we can be sure we see SHv0.5 on-screen is as far back as TEotW (Chapter 17 - Watchers and Hunters (funny coincidence in the chapter name, right?)). It's the smiling Myrddraal who merely talks, threatens and tries to influence Rand. Sounds like something Ishamael does in Rand's dreams.
That's after 8 (yes; eight) days into the story....
And that's not the only time people -me included- think there's a special Myrddraal showing up in the story. Whitebridge....Prologue of TGH....etc.
Apparently it was made shortly before TDR, after the first seals broke, but a bit later disposed of in order to create another better version some time in TFoH.
Apperently it was around from the start, regardless of when the first Seal broke. Makes more sense too then your story. A story not supported anywhere in the books. Considering that Ishamael was only partly-bound by the Sealing, couldn't it make sense just a teensy bit -with the Taint (a finite amount of the essence of Shai'tan) on saidin- and Myrddraal roaming free, that Ishamael has a link to Myrddraal?
And that it was this link that allowed a certain degree of freedom?
Or maybe I should pose a question; what set Ishamael apart this time for him to be only partly bound?
SH appears then in the beginning of LoC, while Moridin, whom we see the first time in ACoS, was probably transmigrated some time later.
Again, you're the one speculating based on unfounded asumptions. In the prologue of LoC, Shaidar Haran says to Aran'gar that "none but he and the Great Lord know she lives". That's on Shaldine 12, according to the WoT Timeline.Then later in LoC (Chapter 30 - To Heal Again) "Halima" 'was told to mention a name to Delana: Aran'gar' and this is how Delana responds:
"Delana sat down heavily. That name had been mentioned in her dreams. For the first time in years, Delana Mosalaine was afraid."
That is on Nesan 23, not even a WoT-month (39 days) later then the Prologue of LoC. This was also the FIRST on-screen time the name Aran'gar was mentioned again since the prologue. There has always only been one walking the dreams of Darkfriends; Ishamael/ Moridin.
And as we know, Myrddraal don't dream. Who do you think visited Delana's dream somewhere during that month?
To me, this looks like Shaidar Haran / Moridin working on the same project again from the get-go.
Besides, when we do first see Moridin on-screen, his eyes already show the saa, which only show after a long period of extensive use.
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Are you seriously suggesting that Moridin 'sneaked' without making any sound in a forest on a bed of brown/ dead leaves? (again - read that chapter). The Watcher could easily hear Sammael and Grandael, but Sammael and Grandael -heightened hearing and all- didn't hear a thing! Now that's weak assumption of you ask me.
Yeah, Moridin sneaked, as we see when he is suddenly standing "very still", when Sammael seems to have heard him.
It's specifically mentioned the Watcher isn't making sound. It's not saying 'trying to move as soundlesly as possible or something like that. Even Aiel produce sound when stalking through woods. It's specifically mentioned that same chapter by Sevanna.
Maybe he also did something with the TP to hide noise, or fancloth doesn't only make you invisible, but also absorbs noise a bit. That the watcher is wearing a "skulker's mask" should be indication enough for any reasonable reader that sneaking/skulking is naturally involved, if someone spies on others.
You're the one making stuff up as you go. First off, warding against sound is a two-way street. (read KoD, where Egwene meets with the SAS-hall) Second, the Watcher was merely holding the TP. The Watcher didn't channel a speck that we know off untill he ripped a hole in the Pattern to travel outside the Pattern. It just says he isn't producing sound, like we know a Myrddraal can do! It doesn't say it's stopped/ muted/ blocked/whatever.
Fancloth 'absorbing sound'? Classic! Maybe it makes you weigh less too... a little. And you're actually saying my arguments are weak? This is conjecture that's actually unsupported by what we know from the books.
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The Watcher just thinks of 'his eyes'. We never see them. But as we can see from Shaidar Harans PoV in chapter 40, it still thinks that "in its eyes, the gateways left a residue" (or something much like that). Slowly, the mind is adapting to the body...as Shaidar Haran told the ´gars it would.
What you say makes hardly sense. If Moridin & SH are a combo like Slayer, each with their own thoughts, abilities and appearance, then there is no adapting needed. Moridin would always just have his own body, but could switch to SH and they would share their thoughts.
I didn't write those precious few lines showing Shaidar Harans PoV. 13 lines to be exact. And in one of them, SH refers to it's eyes, while we all know, Myrddraal don't have any! Aint that a hoot?
It also makes no sense that in one scene in ACoS, SH needs fancloth as the watcher, while a few chapters later he doesn't need it anymore to spy. This indicates that we have two separate characters.
How short sighted is that? Did you actually read what I wrote the previous post? I clearly explained that in chapter 20, it was noon on a sunny day and when we see Shaidar Haran in chapter 40 it's somewhere around dusk! (Grandael PoV: The sun sat
low behind the mountains to the west, half of a glowing red ball)
I also clearly explained that Myrddraal need 'deeper shadows' to become invisible.
And even if you think of your vision as your "eyes", it doesn't explain how the watcher can raise his eyebrows, if a Fade's upper face is blank. The watcher also thinks e.g. of himself as a "he", while SH thinks of himself as "it". All those thoughts of the watcher make it absolutely clear that Moridin/the watcher is a human and SH is a Myrddraal.
Enterrrrr PoV-trap! Already explained as well. And if Shaidar Haran can think of itself as having eyes, why can't "the Watcher" were that a Myrddraal think of eyebrows/ eyes..?Like I said earlier..; the mind bends to the body.
We see it happening between chapter 20 to 40;
from 'he/himself' and 'eyes/ eyebrows' to 'it/itself' and 'eyes'.
*shrugs*
Do me a favour and answer the hard parts about my answer..?
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3: Explain to me if the Watcher is Moridin how he noticed that(apparently from some distance) Sammy had let the link between himself and Granny dissolve? Note that the Watcher also knew that both Sammy and Granny still held on to the Source.
Moridin can sense saidin (1) and see it glow around Sammael (2). The typical "prickling" tells him about saidar, as it is explicitely mentioned(3).(4)
1. A human male channeler can sense another human male channeler just holding the Source, but only at very close range. We don't know exactly how close, but from examples between Rand/ Asmo, Rahvin/ Sammael & Eben/ Aran'gar we know it's really close. Are you suggesting the Watcher was sitting on Sammaels back?
Even 50 feet is pushing the limits of human male channelers sensing one another. You think Moridin was trailing the deadly duo 'by the easy to follow red shiny silk dress' at 50 feet?!?
2. Human male channelers don't see a glow around other human male channelers. Plain wrong.
3. Again, the suggested range by the text is way too far off for a male human channeler to sense a female channeler merely holding the source! It just doesn't add up!
4. Most important of all. You didn't answer my question at all!
Regardless of how your explanation doesn't work for the Watcher to be able to sense both Sammael and Grandael, let's just suppose you were right for a second....
My question was: How did the Watcher sense the difference between the pair linking with Sammael leading the link or Sammael letting the link dissolve and the pair holding the Source seperately?
I'm willing to rephrase the question if you do not see the difference....
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4: How could the Watcher tell Sammy held the Source in the first place, given the Watcher was following the deadly duo by Grandaels easy-to-follow shiny red dress (indicating a fairly big distance).
The watcher obviously wasn't that far away.
Got a suggestion then for how far off the Watcher was trailing Sammael & Grandael? A ballpark figure will do. Immagine yourself in a leafless forrest at noon trailing a couple by an easy-to-follow silk, shiny, red dress. (all straight from the text)
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If you compare the watcher's PoV with others from Moridin, it's absolutely clear that Moridin is the watcher.
Not quite; it's Shaidar Haran with Ishamaels memory. Compare it to Luc with Isams memories. It can't be SH, because SH doesn't have eyes & eyebrows (1), doesn't need fancloth (2) and isn't that aware of the OP.(3)
1. PoV trap (enterrrr Cannoli!), even explained by Shaidar Haran in the LoC prologue himself (oh the irony!)
2. Wrong! There was no 'deeper shadow' to lurk and follow from. Talk about weak evidence. Myrddraal aren't invisible you know.
3. Wrong again. As seen by the three Myrddraal dealing with the bandits who caught Elayne, Egwene & Nyneave all three feel 'an Itch' when Egwene channels a hair-thin thread (from the top of my head..don't know what chapter..look it up).
And on top of that, "Shaidar Haran was no regular Myrddraal"...he smells & sees the One Power! Heck.. he's MORE aware of the OP then humans are.
Mik ~ Ishamaels halfmad 'brother'
Death dances in my footsteps....
Death dances in my footsteps....
Moridin & Shadar Haran
- 22/07/2010 08:14:27 PM
1548 Views
No...
- 22/07/2010 08:22:52 PM
937 Views
Re: No...
- 22/07/2010 09:31:35 PM
850 Views
Don't let her talk you out of it so easily. Give us the reasons behind your theory!
- 23/07/2010 03:41:00 AM
813 Views
Re: Don't let her talk you out of it so easily. Give us the reasons behind your theory!
- 27/07/2010 04:00:26 PM
649 Views
Re: No...(en garde, Etzellius Maximus!)
- 23/07/2010 08:38:26 AM
864 Views
I haven't seen those answers either so I'm interested. I don't think they're the same
- 23/07/2010 08:49:11 AM
755 Views
Yup, I think they are one and the same.
- 23/07/2010 08:21:20 AM
1100 Views
This idea is hardly vindicable
- 23/07/2010 09:12:14 AM
854 Views
Au contraire.
- 23/07/2010 11:23:09 AM
951 Views
But why...
- 23/07/2010 11:32:25 AM
810 Views
Again. RJ fooled you.
- 23/07/2010 12:15:26 PM
854 Views
I think it would have to work this way:
- 23/07/2010 03:10:59 PM
797 Views
Your reasoning falls apart right at the start, even though there is some truth to the rest, I think.
- 23/07/2010 04:22:22 PM
895 Views
Um not quite
- 25/07/2010 05:47:22 AM
755 Views
I think your evidence is pretty weak...
- 26/07/2010 10:14:01 AM
713 Views
Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..?
- 26/07/2010 11:58:02 AM
819 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..?
- 26/07/2010 12:18:51 PM
813 Views
Re: Why don't you answer some of the issues I raised then, instead of keeping it vague..?
- 26/07/2010 12:43:53 PM
766 Views
Frankly, I don't see any similarity...
- 26/07/2010 01:57:56 PM
836 Views
Re: Frankly, I don't see any similarity...
- 26/07/2010 04:09:52 PM
686 Views
The problem is...
- 26/07/2010 04:27:50 PM
642 Views
No problem at all, but your unwillingness to accept the possibilty after all these years.
- 27/07/2010 11:38:10 AM
754 Views
I already answered all this...
- 27/07/2010 11:46:36 AM
768 Views
Yeah. And as proven earlier your answers are flat-out wrong.
- 27/07/2010 01:17:36 PM
873 Views
Thanks for those answers. Here's how wrong they actually are:
- 26/07/2010 01:54:44 PM
795 Views
No problem
- 26/07/2010 02:30:45 PM
843 Views
*NM*
Why the half answer? Here's my full answer and the questions you missed..again..
- 26/07/2010 05:14:00 PM
922 Views
Just to understand you correctly...
- 26/07/2010 05:33:46 PM
761 Views
Sure..I'll answer your questions again.. "quid pro quo"?
- 27/07/2010 12:43:21 PM
838 Views
Well, kudos to you, if that idea turns out to be right
- 27/07/2010 01:27:05 PM
803 Views
I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing:
- 26/07/2010 03:53:04 PM
730 Views
Re: I almost want the theory to be true, but one quick thing:
- 26/07/2010 04:18:40 PM
638 Views
One should also remember...
- 26/07/2010 05:06:36 PM
671 Views
Eh?
- 26/07/2010 05:30:20 PM
694 Views
But that the killing stopped, doesn't mean at all that Moridin and SH are one creature. *NM*
- 26/07/2010 05:35:02 PM
745 Views
Give me a better reason? Why did RJ make the timing fit and hid it so far apart?
- 26/07/2010 05:36:28 PM
779 Views
= 
- Oh and has anyone given thought to Hopper = Bela?