while the DO's corruption isn't primarly a matter of will, it's above all a matter of power/energy.
You make an excellent point here and I think I agree. What I am not sure about is whether the way that the Creator and DO "dream" is not all about power/energy. You have repeatedly made the point that the TP IS the Dark One. That channelling the TP is channelling the DO into reality (the Creator's world).
I am curious about what you think of the dreamlike abilities of Fades. Why are they out of sync with reality? The presence of the TP seems to establish a zone of influence for the DO in which he can imagine a different reality. Whether it is the ability to teleport around for Fades or for SH to make the OP vanish, or create that cyclical repeating nightmare for Moghedien in the vacuole.
The DO needs the True Power to reshape reality to its will. A tangible proof of that is how the weather patterns were altered by Shai'tan (probably starting the chain reaction from the area of SG), and how a great enough effort with the OP to fight this off was sucessful.
I totally agree. I was just suggesting that the True Power (energy) is what allows the will of the DO into reality, whereas the OP is already internal to reality so channelling it simply rearranges the Pattern.
btw, what do you think the significance is of the "fuzzing" of auras that Min sees when a channeler is holding or using the Power? Is it suggesting that use of the OP is a wildcard for the Pattern or something else?
It manages to keep it from advancing, but unless Shai'tan retreats (as it apparently did in EOTW), the Wheel had to give up on a whole circle around the Bore, where Shai'tan's power is just to strong too be completely negated.
The Bore is different from SG/Blight. That is a phenomenon associated with the "Thinness." The Bore is, as you say, a global weakness (at least in relation to the Pattern), so we need to distinguish between the Thinness and the Bore. What caused the Thinness was not Mierin "drilling" a hole through the Pattern. She was able to sense the Prison because of the Thinness. So it is either a function of the Pattern--ie, every 2nd-3rd age a thinness develops--or was caused by some other event/catastrophe. I have wondered if the Portal Stones or the event that brought Ogier/Stedding to the mainworld may be responsible. I have also heard theories that use of the OP is to blame (this may or may not be supported by Min's fuzzing problem).
I don't think there's anything Dreamers (or channellers, for that matter) can do about that (though I have this idea that possibly Dreamers - incl. wolves - might be able to help in the special conditions created by the sounding of the Horn, when TAR and the real world seem folded in a special way.
I really like this idea, especially because the Horn as artifact may be something we learn more about if Mat's visit to the realms of the Finns goes anything like I think it might. Providing really ancient knowledge or clues to the links between worlds may be the key role that the Finns have yet to play.
This is why I think Rand must open his side and die, using the shock of the Taint of SL and the TP mixing (a cataclysm similar to what happen at SL, except worse) to make Shai'tan momentarily lose his grip and retreat into his "prison",
This is also a really cool idea, but I do have a few doubts. How could a few drops of SL evil (the Dagger or the evil in Rand's wound) provide a bigger cataclysm than ALL of the Taint and ALL of SL mixing? Maybe because of the "proximity" to the Bore (strange things happen at the Pit of Doom because of the Thinness there) a little SL evil will cause a huge reaction, but I am still a little skeptical.
then the Horn will be sounded to bring Rand back for the other step of the job... take advantage of Shai'tan's retreat to reshape reality without a Bore. This would require Perrin and Mat being "one" with Rand, acting in perfect coordination - a single will - through their mental link.. and my pet theory is that Egwene has to die at Rand's side at TG, and will turn out to be another Hero of the Horn (some sort of Moon Goddess/heroin, counterpart to Rand, the solar hero). Perrin will provide her "interface" to the dreaming wolves. Egwene will "hold off" Shai'tan (by denying the reality of the Bore, while TAR and the RL are folded together by the Horn) while Rand seals the Bore without TP interference, thus removing the weakness. Or something like that....).
This part seems much more compelling and likely to me (and even more awesome) than the first part of your idea. This could also work with Slayer and the Darkhounds, together with Moridin, Cyndane, and Moghedien providing a counterbalance to Perrin and the Wolves, Rand, Egwene, and I think Nynaeve. Or maybe Amys, Bair (if she isn't a darkfriend), and Melaine will help tilt the scales or hold things together if something goes wrong.
TAR vs. the DO is very much an unknown. If we remove Slayer and the Forsaken (dreamwalkers especially) from the equation, there's nothing tangible so far to suggests the Dark One has any power over tel'aran'rhiod, let alone that his powers are greater there than elsewhere (if anything, it appears to be the opposite, ie: TAR is unaffected by the DO, perhaps because he can't be bothered to expand energy over a dimension which is just a reflection, or perhaps because he would need to fight the collective inconscious constantly to affect TAR permanently) TAR appears as unsullied as ever.
You make a good point about T'A'R being seemingly further removed from the Dark One's influence, but I was more specifically thinking of the Bore as cutting through (and therefore not allowing access to) what the characters call TAR and "opening" up "somewhere" in that in-between-space where Egwene floats around and sees all the dreams of all the worlds. HERE is the TAR that touches all worlds, as Verin told Egwene early in the series.
In short, nobody knows what the Blight in TAR looks like (it's not the Blight as in the real world, nor the area as it would be without Shai'tan), so you can't visualize it to enter it.
Hmm, interesting theory. But what about Stedding and Rhuidean and the fact that the realm of the Finns are also "inaccessible" through TAR? I always thought that it was because these areas (including the Blight, but this might be a different problem) were alternate dimensions. That while the "dream sea" may be continuous through all worlds, that the reflected realities of TAR were discontinuous. I bet that if one were to fall asleep in a stedding and try to enter TAR that this would be possible, but one would be unable to go anywhere except Stedding. Same with falling asleep in the Finn world, or taking a nap in the Blight (BAD IDEA!!).
The exception might be Ishamael's palace, because Moridin lives there and like everyone else is connected to TAR and his inconscious may "record" this location and thus it is reflected in TAR). There may also be an area outside SG (at a safe distance from Shai'tan) and including Ishamael's place, which Shai'tan leaves untouched on purpose. It could be the only place in the area where not only you can enter from TAR, but also the only area you can Travel to and from (I get the feeling the distortion of reality makes Travelling in the Blight impossible).
Well, we do know that the Forsaken meet at Ishy's palace and the TAR reflection there (isn't this where Graendal picked the decorations that so preoccupied the other Forsaken?), so it must be possible to Travel and Dream oneself there. But we also know that LTT and the Hundred Companions must have Travelled at least close to SG (maybe to where Demandred did in the opening of LoC?). That traveling in the Blight will be impossible or difficult does seem highly likely, especially considering RJ's suggestion IIRC that as the Pattern begins to shift that traveling may become impossible. This would also balance out the Shadow's weakness of being unable to use Traveling with its majority shadowspawn armies.
As for the global vs. localized nature of the Bore, I always understood it this way: time and space are constants of reality, inescapable rules within Creation, but do not exist outside of it. The Bore is a global weakening of the barrier between Creation and Shai'tan (similar to a material only 95% impermeable - the liquid outside would mix with the liquid inside, at a very slow rate), and Shai'tan seeps through it globally, there is no when or where from its side of things, but the instant the TP crosses the barrier, this phenomenon manifests itself in space/time within Creation. Until/Unless he is powerful enough to overcome the rules of reality (and/or the system has become so chaotic inside that the whole system unravels), Shai'tan is bound by rules such as space and time (and everything else, down to how the rules of the weather) for everything he does within Creation.
No arguments here.
We do not know for sure that the Bore (localized etc.) exists in all the worlds. What we know is that it exists in all the Mirror Worlds. We have yet to find out if there is a Bore in the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, or if the global weakness of the Pattern has affected these worlds differently, because the rules of reality are slightly different in these dimensions.
Why don't we know that it exists in all worlds? I thought it was well documented that if the DO wins that he wins everywhere. That this is why the Ogier shouldn't flee and why the Finns also hate the Shadow and why it is extra-dangerous to mention the Shadow there. But maybe you are right and this is the counter argument that Loial's mother Covril will use against Loial's petition to stay. Maybe this will make Loial's sacrifice all the more honorable. And I can't find LTT's quote to Rand about the Creator not caring, but IIRC he said that if the DO wins that the Creator will just make other worlds as he has done countless times before.
This message last edited by LoialT on 20/07/2010 at 05:31:28 PM
What if it IS all a dream...
- 18/07/2010 10:53:20 PM
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Someone been watching Leo DiCaprio's latest two flicks I take it
- 19/07/2010 02:16:18 AM
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haha I guess so, although I've been thinking about this for a while *NM*
- 19/07/2010 07:16:50 PM
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Sounds like an interesting theory. I guess we'll find out in the next few years. *NM*
- 19/07/2010 07:13:32 PM
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Re: What if it IS all a dream...
- 20/07/2010 01:31:57 AM
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A few points
- 20/07/2010 05:29:27 PM
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Oh, I thought you meant a Bobby Ewing wakes up from 3 seasons of fake events sort of dream.
- 20/07/2010 04:56:07 AM
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