Re: How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
DomA Send a noteboard - 25/06/2010 05:59:38 PM
Because the current situation, like the one in the AoL, says otherwise. The Shadow touches the Pattern because his prison has been cracked. This means that the Pattern itself can't quite be the prison, because then the Pattern would still be the thing that touches the DO. There must be something between the Pattern and Shaitan.
Not necessarily.
I don't think there is a prison myself. The "prison" is what's outside the boundaries of Creation, where Shai'tan exist. What Shai'tan is surrounds it. The fringes of reality (it doesn't just stop to exist.. there are fringes like vacuoles) is the layer that keeps Shai'tan out normally, but those borders have been weakened by the Drilling (I even wonder if vacuoles could be entered before the drilling of the Bore).
Channelling the OP directly at Shai'tan is "insane" - producing unpredicatable effects one of which was the creation of the opportunity for Shai'tan to taint saidin it appears (another was the opportunity to link Moridin and Rand... an opportunity taken by the Wheel I now believe), but Shai'tan is in contact with the Pattern and while the effects are sometimes similar (eg: the chaotic bubbles), this is not the same as channelling at Shai'tan.
The Bore is not a "hole" for real, it's a global weakening of the Pattern. What the Bore is is a manifestation within the rules of reality of that global weakening. It's a kind of avatar of the global weakening. It's a bit the same for Time. Shai'tan outside is unbound by time/space, but his influence within creation is bound by these rules of reality. Whatever Shai'tan does inside gets under some influence of the Wheel, including the strongest rules of reality, like space/time. Shai'tan outside is totally outside the influence of the Wheel, but inside, his power gets gradually absorbed into the Pattern, woven with it, corrupting the Pattern. The Wheel appears to have fairly little control over it at first, but eventually things get under control (the best examples would be how reality around the bubbles of evil eventually reassert itself, and how the Wheel eventually manages to undo effects of the TP like the harnessing of the seasons by the DO (the wheel uses all sort of corrective mechanisms to achieve this, most of all human beings, ta'veren or not).
All that logic from the last two paragraphs rules out one possible way to defeat Shaitan - Rand cannot simply use the Pattern itself to "push" the DO away. There will still be an overlapping point where the two touch
Personally, I think Lews Therin's mistake (and Latra Posae's - her plan had the same flaw) may have been failing to realise the Bore was a global weakening of the Pattern, which I believe Herid Fel has puzzled out. LTT tried to seal off the Bore itself. Perhaps this would have had the effect of correcting the global weakness, but personally I doubt it.
One of the flaws specific to LTT's plan specifically is that I think Shai'tan is using the seals as 7 more links, powerful and focussed, to touch the Pattern beyond the sealing itself (I think the "focal points" to the seal are how he managed to create more controlled effects, like Shaidar Haran and his touch on the seasons, as opposed to the "bubbles of evil" which I think are fairly random when they "burst" - what happens then is out of Shai'tan's control - pure chaos). The seals (the objects, ie: the focal point for the knots in the weaves made by LTT and the other men - 6 men I would guess) can't resist very much of these attacks, so Shai'tan loses these contacts as they shatter, but his global power to touch the Pattern also increases the further the actual sealing weakens.. his power increases, but his ability to focus it diminish... this is why he can't rebuild his hold on the seasons in place again, and why he didn't turn all the Fades into SH etc. Rand himself, however, has become lately another "focal point" for Shai'tan's power. As Shai'tan's hold on Rand increased, the effects of Shai'tan's corruption spread around Rand, and as Rand has a very special tie to the Pattern - is one with it apparently, this was really, really bad, and made the mission of "changing Rand", making him see the Light again in a way, was one of the most important, and this Rand achieved on DM in TGS. The Dragon is done being an agent of Chaos, now he must make himself the focus for Order. He has shattered the old bounds as the Wheel pulled him toward achieving, as those old bounds were entangled and no real order could be achieved. It's another way in which Rand has "cleared the rumble", and now the Wheel can retie the threads in a new order, via Rand and Mat and Perrin and those closest to their ta'veren webs that extend it, like Egwene and co.)
I think what Rand needs to do isn't try to repair the Bore, or even seal it off. What he needs to do is strengthen the Pattern, in effect removing the global weakness. The more he succeeds, the more the hold Shai'tan has taken on reality will slip, the less and less real the Bore will become. At some point, it will simply cease to exist (the pattern will then revert to it's normal state, though likely bearing the scars of what Shai'tan has done to it), the barrier will be whole again, and Shai'tan won't be able to touch what's inside anymore.
I don't think Rand (ot anyone) can achieve that through channelling. I think the key is the three ta'veren. Perrin and Mat don't realise it yet, but they are as vital as Rand to the "sealing" of Shai'tan, and together they bind all the necessary threads (the people through which Order can come).
The key to strengthening the Pattern, IMO' is Fel's "order and belief make strength". He has figured it out. Min is getting very close with her interest in the "the three shall become one" prophecy. She has yet to understand this and Fel's theories together hold the final key.
I've thought through a few possible alternatives - accessing the evil within Padan Fain, "draining" him in order to make his unique power a repulsive sheet that will be at the border between the Pattern and Shaitan.
The Shadar Logoth evil is both attractive and repulsive to the True Power, and the two cannot co-exist with one another. They nullify each other, as we've seen at the cleansing. Is it Fain himself, the dagger he carries or the evil of SL within Rand's side (his wound from Fain) which has a key role? I'm undecided. IMO, the role of SL in the resolution may be to create a catastrophe at SG (which will obliterate the sun for a while). This evil may serve to destroy the Pit of Doom.
So the sequence of events I imagine is this:
Rand will use himself and Callandor as the bait for Shai'tan. One of the two women to volonteer to die with him will be Alivia, and she will be the key to help Rand to die because she will tell Rand: this won't work to fool the Forsaken unless two women come with you, and beside, in the end you may not have enough strength left to take the final step and someone will have to help. As they come to the Pit, Shai'tan will stand eager, waiting for them to shatter the last seal and begin channelling through Callandor so he can use the OP/TP interaction to his advantage (to rip the Bore open, to taint both saidin and saidar... whatever opportunity arises from the contact), drooling at the stupidity of Rand who intends to use a flawed weapon which magnifies the effects of the TP, thinking two women linked with him will be enough to prevent it. Shaidar Haran will be the one awaiting Rand and the two women - perhaps making Rand a final offer...
Then the trap will spring: Rand won't channel and will drop Callandor and unsheath Justice, it's the evil of SL he will throw at Shai'tan (the dagger, the wound, Fain... probably the wound I would think, but it doesn't really matter). This will create a cataclysm at the Pit, forcing Shai'tan to temporarily back off to avoid a chain reaction outside the Pattern, briefly releasing his hold on the Bore.
This is when Mat and Perrin will re establish order. How? I have no concrete idea, except that obviously timing will be everything, and that is the final purpose of their link (colour swirls) to Rand, and the final purpose of these two being ta'veren. What may happen is that to destabilize Shai'tan's hold on the Bore, Rand may have to open his wound (with his sword justice, sheating the blade in his side) then throw himself into the Pit of Doom, momentarily exiting the Pattern. At the exact instant this happens (Shayol Ghul or at least the Pit will explode - all the TP in this area will form a massive beam of black hiding all Light), and before Shai'tan get itself back together and launch a massive assault, the Wheel will have a "window of opportunity" to use Mat and Perrin (and all their followers - this may include all the Dreamwalkers of the Light - that would include the Wolves and Perrin, and Egwene of course - to enter TAR and concentrate on the Pattern as it should be, without the Bore. I think Mat's purpose has to do with the powers of the Finns to manipulate the Pattern - they don't extend beyond their realms and I think this is one purpose of Mat: to extend through his link with them their powers to the human world) to strengthen the Pattern enough to make the "global bore" vanish. A second purpose may be to sound the Horn right at the instant Rand dies.
It's not "death" Rand will have to face - death he has now accepted - it's much worse, something he has not yet quite accepted, something he has decided to avoid on DM in TGS (after briefly seeing this as freedom, an end to suffering). It's the "final death", the annihilation of his soul (or its capture by Shai'tan which is even worse... horrible torment, until Shai'tan in another turning steals a body and transmigrate Rand as his champion), the ultimate sacrifice. His salvation, I suspect, is his link to Moridin's soul. I think the "proof" that Rand's soul has been secured will come from the sounding of the Horn of Valere by Mat at the moment Rand dies. Rand and the other Heroes will contribute to bringing back order, but the Horn is most importantly a key to save Rand's own soul from being destroyed. The Horn will snatch Rand's soul from Shai'tan.
It's through Moridin that the Wheel will be able to find and reach into the maelstrom and save Rand's soul from Shai'tan. This could mean Rand has to capture Moridin and keep him alive and nearby when he goes to SG (highly dangerous, as he can channel the TP - and the whole thing might involved unshielding him at the right moment... the key to hold Moridin may be to place him in the custody of those with ter'angreal with Mat's medallion and releasing his shield as Rand dies so his link to Shai'tan is opened), but nowhere where he could be destroyed in the big conflagration. If Moridin throws himself in the Pit, Rand is doomed, and maybe with him the world, as the whole plan backfires and leads to Shai'tan's victory. Moridin seeks the final death, so the best, most ironical end for him is to prevent him from fooling Shai'tan and end himself when he sees his Master is failing, taking his last chance to get the final death instead of remaining around to serve his master in a next turning. He will be forced to live, until the Bore is no more and he has no mean to destroy his soul anymore. Then he will be killed, condemned to normal rebirth.
So "the world" may have to come to Shayol Ghul with the strongest alliance it can achieve, the most order it can already bring into the chaos the Pattern is now in: male and female channellers together - the old AS guild including WO, SF, Kin, Asha'man and Aes Sedai agreeing to work together, Seanchan and channellers at the very least temporarily reconciled, the rulers aligned behind Mat and Perrin, the Da'shain returned, the Ogier and Finns contributing, even the animals sharing a common purpose with humans against the Shadow. Etc. Three ta'veren will provide the Wheel with the means to hold all the threads together when Rand creates the opportunity for it.
This message last edited by DomA on 25/06/2010 at 06:25:38 PM
How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
25/06/2010 01:00:35 AM
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Re: How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
25/06/2010 04:18:42 AM
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Mierin thought they had found a new source of power, not of THE power.
25/06/2010 05:40:27 PM
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Re: Mierin thought they had found a new source of power, not of THE power.
30/06/2010 03:18:32 AM
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Here's a theory I had posted on wotmania
25/06/2010 06:16:07 AM
- 919 Views
I told you this about 4 years ago, but your nickname is AWESOME *NM*
25/06/2010 01:21:24 PM
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Aiel Reluctance to Enter T'A'R in the flesh
25/06/2010 02:12:01 PM
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The Aiel's insistance is not baseless. They know why they say it is evil.
25/06/2010 06:01:08 PM
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You might be right, but the other idea is far more interesting. *NM*
25/06/2010 10:18:37 PM
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Slayer seems quite inhuman and he's been in TAR in the flesh a lot
26/06/2010 04:29:24 AM
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true, but he's also be transformed in some unknown way. Not sure he really counts as human
26/06/2010 05:46:46 PM
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My idea
25/06/2010 09:37:32 AM
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Re: My idea
25/06/2010 06:44:31 PM
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The very name "Bore"...
26/06/2010 07:25:22 AM
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Actually I think he pretty much backed DomA's opinion
26/06/2010 08:30:42 AM
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Well, as said, I disagree.
26/06/2010 08:43:40 AM
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Well here's what I think
26/06/2010 11:18:33 AM
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Look...
26/06/2010 11:43:25 AM
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Re: Look...
26/06/2010 01:04:53 PM
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That's wrong...
26/06/2010 01:26:25 PM
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You're ignoring basic facts
26/06/2010 02:44:38 PM
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Again...
26/06/2010 02:53:05 PM
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Re: Again...
26/06/2010 03:30:20 PM
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No, the Bore was drilled through that specific thinness in the Pattern.
26/06/2010 03:54:51 PM
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Yeah....
26/06/2010 04:54:50 PM
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After reading through the back and forth, I am convinced of this:
26/06/2010 05:33:21 PM
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Re: After reading through the back and forth, I am convinced of this:
27/06/2010 06:20:32 PM
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Maybe they can plug the Bore with garbage like British Petroleum. *NM*
25/06/2010 05:43:41 PM
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Re: How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
25/06/2010 05:59:38 PM
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Re: How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
25/06/2010 06:55:28 PM
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me too !
25/06/2010 10:34:41 PM
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It sounds similar to one of the noisy environmental problem in RJ's time
27/06/2010 02:22:27 AM
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Re: How can Rand repair the bore? More importantly, what forms the boundary of the Wheel itself?
25/06/2010 11:27:18 PM
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I always figured Egwene and Rand would have to work together.
29/06/2010 08:26:45 PM
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Re: I always figured Egwene and Rand would have to work together.
29/06/2010 10:17:59 PM
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Maybe saidar and saidin, woven together properly, form something else?
01/07/2010 11:50:40 PM
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