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Re: Why kill the Reds when they can be turned 13-13 style? DomA Send a noteboard - 14/06/2010 06:14:04 PM
What would this accomplish?

The Shadow's plan, obviously, was to get a legitimate alliance going between Rebels and Asha'man, under which it could hide the fact the BA was joining Taim and training with him - and that the Shadow was keeping a close eye of Rand's own forces at the same time. It's the very same strategy followed at the BT all along: Taim had suggested and got approved by Rand the idea of recruitement, taking advantage of this to build his DF army while supervising the training of his enemy and constantly knowing everything about it - strength, numbers, weaknesses, missions, locations etc. (how many men in Taim's faction were DF told to be at location X that day in order to be tested by one of the recruiting parties, I wonder. A lot if not most of them, IMO - it makes no sense to leave this to chance, or to lure non-DF to the Shadow one by one after they came to the BT.)

Taim wasn't about to jeopardize all this by letting the WT also bond men. What did he have to gain by this? Or Mesaana? Nothing. If Rand found out through the rebels or spies, Taim was finished.

The whole scheme piloted by Moria at the orders of Demandred or Mesaana was an attempt to minimize the outcome of the cleansing, and the fact Rand had started using mixed gender circles and this would spread. Logain's arrival to Rand's camp, with all these women, only made it more urgent (this is one of real reasons Taim hated the fact Logain was bonding women. He didn't want Logain to have women on his side Rand could use, and Logain could use to defend himself when Taim betrayed Rand's forces at the BT. Women at the BT also meant the BA could never come in secret to train).

Demandred at the Cleansing saw Rand's forces sure had nifty toys, but they were also far from the WOS level of warfare...

The average DF Asha'man is most likely trained to be more than a match for any of Rand's in combat. However, this has limits. Even without angreal involved, and even in groups, the DF Asha'man un linked ran the risk of being no match at all in TG whenever the Light's big mixed circles get involved (those at the cleansing were small ones... with very nifty toys.. which was enough to hold off the Forsaken unlinked and unable to use the mass destruction stuff anyway as the risk was way too high if they missed one of the cirles picked them up - it's why Demandred didn't start throwing blossoms of Fire and their like at the Cleansing. The circles were already vastly superior in strength, if they picked up the big weaves from the Forsaken, they'd have wiped the floor.. so they stuck to stuff like balefire, shields and fireballs...).

The Shadow had no choice to turn to mixed gender linking, and train for it. Logain joining Rand with many AS, and then the battle at Algarin manor, where LTT demonstrated advanced destructive weaves picked up by Logain's forces and the inner circle (which include spies for Demandred/Mesaana.. notice incidentally she spoke of "their people near Rand", not "her people near Rand", put even more pressure. Taim's DF Asha'man were seing their advance in skills melt away.... as fot the BA they were totally outclassed.

So... let the Light bond each other silly and even encourage them to go this way: you kill one of the pair, the other is either crazy or lose control of her emotions. Meanwhile, the alliance the Rebels BA were proposing with Taim let Rand believe he had brought the Rebels behind him, offered him a way out not to have to get involved with AS and let Taim handle all the hassle, and opened wide the door to all the Rebel BA to fake-bond DF Asha'man. After the alliance, the BA could come and go openly at the BT without anyone the wiser. To counter the Cleansing, the Shadow planned to have vastly superior mixed gender circles for TG with very well trained circle leaders of both genders (the rest of the BA from the Tower side could be used for their strength alone in circles, it's the rebel BA only who would be trained in WOS-style combat like Taim's Asha'man), just like before the cleansing the plan to counter the fact Rand was building an army of male channellers was to stay close and learn everything, and under Rand's nose train DF Asha'man with vastly superior skills.

The Shadow had no use for "red warders", and no use to infiltrate the WT any further or even the Rebels.... there's two Forsaken and hundreds of BA there already.

It didn't really have a use for three women turned DF, who would hate Taim and his Asha'man fiercely. Gaining bad "allies" like this were not worth the trouble of having 13 BA leave the Tower to come turn them. Turning to the Shadow is a tactic Semirhage used in the WOS to turn important people on the Light's side, likely after all the real "moles" like Moghedien had been exposed. Some of those carried missions (terrorist style) and others just attacked moral by declaring themselves openly for the Shadow in the Hall. It's not a tactic the Shadow has much use for at this point. It already has hundreds of women infiltrated in the Tower. If anyone shall be turned to the Shadow by force, now's the time for it, after the BA has been expurged in TV. Now it's worth the trouble to kidnap people, bring 13 BA and Fades and turn them. Otherwise, if anyone has been force-turned already, I'd look no further than Taim himself.

I'm still totally convinced Demandred's behind Taim and the BT, the whole scheme is way too clever, way too strategically sound and military-minded, way too clever at adapting to every new military challenge for anyone but him to be behind this. It's by a fair margin the Shadow's best implemented plan so far, that and Mesaana's split of the Tower. The Seanchan plan isn't as "clever", because Semirhage can't claim credit for the Return, but it was still very clever still to place herself near the future biggest enemy of the WT.

Beside, the original plan was to give in Taim a second to Rand, who would gain his trust and eventually betray him. This has Demandred's paws all over it. I think it wasn't his first attempt at that strategy either: Weiramon seems to have the same mission. If a WO or clan chief is a DF, I'd suspect an agent of Demandred again. I'm pretty sure Demandred has put a lot of effort in trying to undermine and infiltrate each new group that joined Rand, but his masterpiece will turn out to be Taim and the BT.

And to return to "why not turn them", Brandon was asked about the fatse of Pevara and the envoys and he wasn't quite sure the story of what happened to them after the KOD epilogue wouldt fit in TOM, but perhaps he'd suggest a novella to Harriet for loose ends like that. This speaks against the envoys having been turned: this would be a big deal and would resurface in the plot. This also speaks against them being prisoners. Either they'd be rescued or killed in the showdown with Taim, and there's no need for a novella to explain they were captured... Nah... they're dead, and perhaps Jordan would have been better killing them off on-screen in KOD, but he probably thought it could be better used later. I'm guessing the slot Jordan had in mind to reveal this in AMOL went down the drain as a result of BS splitting Egwene's storyline from the "AS side-plots". If not in the KOD epilogue, then the next obvious place to milk this for dramatic tension and to reveal Pevara and co. were killed was before or right after the rebel embassy left for the BT, but that's exactly the sort of distraction from the Rand/Egwene main storylines Brandon didn't want to have in TGS. The novella idea is OK, but personally I'd simply add a scene in the TOM prologue. It's fairly obvious RJ's main intent was to make one embassy vanish to worry us about the fate of the second one. That was the whole idea behind revealing Taim as a DF at the end of KOD, right after we were told the Rebels would soon act on Rand's offer.

More and more I'm convinced this is a red herring. The rebel embassy never reached the BT. I have a few ideas about what could have happened, the most likely being that Logain intercepted this embassy, or Verin arranged it. Verin is very likely... she sure appeared to be the good little BA when she jumped into the conversation in KOD and told Rand "whatever Taim is and is up to, he'll have to wait" (this suggests strongly she knew Mesaana had spies near Rand beside her.. and that Verin knew Logain was right) but the thing is, Verin isn't BA for real, and is striving to bring as many agents of the Shadow as she can. It seems obvious that Verin wasn't looking kindly at all on Rand sending the Rebel AS to the BT (especially if she puzzled out this would result BA and Taim joining up), but she couldn't betray the Shadow.. until the last hour of her death. I suspect a lot when she brought Mat to Caemlyn (and there was a sizeable delay then before she went to Egwene), Verin left other instructions to someone else to intercept a delegation of AS going to the BT... assuming she didn't wait to intercept them herself, picked a sister she trusted in the lot, pretended to be sent by Rand, asking them to remain in the city and wait before going to the BT and gave them a letter they were to open only in X days. Her letter would reveal her own mission to bring down the BA, who in the 47 she knows to be BA, who in Rand's inner circle is BA (none in Logain's faction, because of Alviarin.. a very convenient plot device now) and all her tricks to root out others, and that the embassy must secretely go to Logain and where he is. The other instruction is not to contact Egwene again before X days. However, while this could work, it is much safer and also far simpler for Verin to have gone straight to Logain, told him he must make sure to intercept the embassy from the Rebels, that he should trust Egwene and no one else. Then, she left him a letter to open in X days, telling him how to root out the BA in his own group (there's none, actually) the names of all the rebel BA (incl. Sitters like Moria) she knew, reveal all she knows about Taim and the Forsaken involved with him, and that he must wait a while, then go to Egwene and together they must strike at the BT. Verin would also tell Logain he must keep Rand out of it because Rand has DF near him and the Forsaken's eyes are all on him. The best chance to destroy Taim is to fool the Shadow into believing the Light was still overlooking the BT stuff. But by intercepting the embassy from Egwene, it was a matter of time before the Shadow smells a rat, so things have to go fast after that: leave time to purge the BA at the Tower, and that's it.


The second option is that Logain himself, furious Rand sent the AS into a trap that would strenghten the Shadow, didn't have his agents in Caemlyn convince the embassy to come to him instead. But the Verin idea works better - her whole comment "whatever he's up to, Taim will have to wait" suggest strongly she had ideas on how to deal with that. I suspect it's a plot contrivance created because the book was split in three that either Verin has not told Egwene or that Egwene won't find her note about Taim before TOM.

A good chunk of TOM will deal with the timeline of TGS - we go back a month in one storyline and more in the other. I suspect there may now a bit more Egwene/Rand in the book than originally Brandon thought to have (but then, maybe not). We're looking at a COT-style book for the timeline: first bring the 2 main storylines to the same point as Rand/Egwene (though unlike COT what happens in those storylines pre-TG is as important as what happened to Rand/Egwene in TGS) then bring all storylines together for the climax.

In any case, he spoke of having for Rand/Egwene about the same number of chapters Mat and Perrin had in TGS, and that's not a ton. Bridge chapters as he described them, that would bring them to the "big event that starts TG and reunite all the main players". What I expect, however, is that there are many "cut scenes" from storylines linked to Rand and Egwene. Aviendha's storyline is obviously one of those, in Rand's case. In Egwene's case, I think there's a good chance a bunch of secondary stuff which happened behind the scenes in TGS will be shown in TOM (Alviarin's storyline, her efforts to catch the BA hunters, and how the the BA in the Tower were mysteriously able to flee after the purge took place among the rebels. Most BA can't travel (herself and Reds know Travelling, that's all), and Alviarin once said it took a long time to contact all the BA in the Tower through the heart system and secret messages. So... there's a story there. By the looks of it, SH asked for a report about Alviarin's investigation and him (or Mesaana, back in charge after her punishment) decided at some point to implement an emergency plan, and maybe the BA were even already preparing to leave the Tower soon (most likely for the BT, all along) and the purge merely precipitated their departure. In any case, it appears an emergency system was put in place. My feeling is that to counter the hunt, Alviarin was told to pass orders for the BA in the Tower (all but the top tier of the SC) to reveal themselves to each other so they knew who to trust and who not to trust (Alviarin also had to find who the other Talenes, the exposed and turned BA, were.. and keep away from them, and not touch them not to alert the hunters), and to pass a series of emergency signals, and to teach each other the Travelling weave. They were also forewarned about the BA hunt ongoing, told about the suspected hunters, and to report anything suspicious. The women who knew about Alviarin being BA (her and perhaps the number 2 and 3 of the SC) were killed, and possibly the BA who knew about Mesaana too. The minute Alviarin/Mesaana knew of the purge, the order was given to flee now and regroup, passed openly from one BA to the other, no longer using secret messages in drop boxes to pass from heart to heart, which takes forever).

In this light about TOM, it makes a lot of sense to me that by mid-book (maybe. Maybe even 2/3 - it depends completely on how long the "bridge" to the climax from the time Mat/Perrin get synchro with Rand/Egwene again will be) when Egwene reappears, the fate of her embassy will be a big issue, and the Red's disappearance will come into the open early on to spice things up, as soon as the Red learn of the embassy the rebel have sent and that is late. The Red will very soon send new Sitters to the Hall. The Red will soon be furious. Obviously they don't know yet what Tsumata has ordered their Sitters to do, but the pressure must be getting very high on her to reveal it, or tell when the Sitters will be back, or name new ones so the Red take back their place in the Hall. When Tsutama spills the beans, the Reds will be furious against the BT.

The Sitters will reveal everything to Egwene and the Hall of "their" plan to control the BT and how it backfired, and pressure for a big attack on the BT. They have proven themselves enemies now, and they must be dealt with.

Egwene will be desperate - attempts to contact the Rebel embassy will fail - and impressively furious. What happened, how could Rand do this to her, on the very eve of TG? Is this him, does he have a Forsaken near him like she had, and still have since she's inherited the one near Elaida and can't still find her. Doesn't he understand they must work together, not against each other? Was his offer of 47 men just a trap to capture and compel even more sisters, like he had done earlier with the Rebel embassy? He sure offered no compensation for those. He offered 47 men, but why didn't he just freed those that were bonded instead if he truly wanted to make amend? He doesn't want an alliance, he wants women under his control. Egwene will reject any idea from the Hall of attacking the BT. With the Seanchan threat she can ill afford to weaken TV right now, and with the three Oaths limiting options, this will result in sisters being captured or killed again.

It's Rand she must go to, and this time Egwene will put her foot down and insist to the Hall no embassy will do - Rand will capture them as he's done before. She must be part of this ambassy. She must speak to him directly and force him to release all his AS "prisoners". One of the things Egwene might try is to break through Rand's shield on his dreams. Won't work. She will also contact Elayne to see if she's any news of her embassy coming through Caemlyn, to keep an eye on the BT. Nynaeve (who would have the most distressing news for Egwene: Rand attempting to kill Tam and then vanishing.... not being seen for days, no one knows where he is... "The Rand you knew is gone Egwene. He hates you, hates all AS - stay away!".

Then, Elayne will report she's not find out anything about the embassy, but she's find out the BA is at the BT...

Then Logain will arrive to TV. The embassy was with him, yada, yada. Verin, yada, yada - had to wait for you to purge the BA before I could tell you. Taim is a DF, we're preparing on the BT - but now we know the BA is there (how many you say? Ouch, that's a lot!) I need much more than just the women I have now. No, no one has compelled the sisters, just captured and bonded them to protect them from Taim. And the embassy he let bond his men, 47 just as agreed. No, it wasn't a trap. Rand rejected Logain's accusations against Taim, not only that but went forward with sending Egwene's people to Taim without even a warning to be cautious. Egwene will be furious with Rand, as furious as she's ever been, and for very good reasons this time .

"I was true to my word to you Egwene. I went to Rand and did all I could to be loyal to him. But he's repaid me and the Asha'man poorly for our loyalty as you see. We will fight for the Light, but al'Thor is power-mad, and wrong. He's let us sit on the Illian border for months now, while he's trying to get the Seanchan to agreee to a truce..."

"a WHAT with WHO? Who do you think pocked holes in the Tower? They've just attacked us. A TRUCE! The bloody IDIOT."


"Meanwhile he's doing nothing about the fact the Shadow builds itself an army at the BT. It's up to us."

"So... you've assumed full command of the Asha'man then? They now answer to you"

"I have. They do. I had no choice. I have to stop this madness." (Egwene's dream of a laughing Logain jumping over Rand falling im pieces gets fulfilled...)

"So we are allies. Allies. Equals. We both serve the Light, not one the other. You aren't Asha'man, you are Aes Sedai... brother. The time has come for our brothers to come back. Will you?

"We will."

"And you will release any your 47 sisters who wish to be freed of their bond?"

"I want to and tried, but they all refused."

"So be it then. It seems I found my new purpose for the Red Ajah. All of them have already volunteered to strike at the BT. Now they will come with you, under a Red. You say you can work with Toveine Gazal?"

"Sure."

"Will the Reds be enough, I'm loathe to send the Green with the threat of the Seanchan and all. "

"The Reds will do. You have heard of Blossoms of Fire yet, have you? For all his "special classes", I doubt Taim and the BA are able of stuff like that. In three days is fine to you?"

"In three days. We have a deal. There's a Forsaken hidden near me. I don't know who she is. She mustn't be forewarned of this. I will summon the Red Sitters to brief them. I will then announce to the Hall that I decided the Red Ajah is to divide in groups and leave the Tower to hunt and destroy down all the BA they can find. Not a lie.. but not the full truth. Go back to mobilize your men and their sisters. We will regroup at the Caemlyn palace in two days, prepare there then strike at the BT at dawn on the third day. You'll find me at the palace too, on the day of the battle."

"After, we'll have to plan together what to do about the Seanchan. They'll know how to Travel now - they can come to us at any time."

"Oh yes. And then I'll deal with Rand bloody al'Thor. Rand al'Thor will answer me for sending 47 of us to Mazrim Taim without a warning, for his truce with the Seanchan".

"And don't forget: he called me a big fat liar, and treated me like I was a fly whisk or something."

"Hmmm well.. I'm sure he did."

And then Elaida's foretelling will come true, with all its elements connected very closely to one another (not scattered around like many have it... sisters walking its ground referring to the bonding by Logain, the blood and fire to a battle but not involving the Amyrlin, and the Amyrlin's anger with Rand being about something else, or happening at some other time). Nope, it's all forms a whole: The fulfillment of the foretelling began with Egwene making the Tower whole and purging it of the BA, then soon after male and female Aes Sedai will reunite (the Guardians also balancing the servants from Nicola's foretelling, ie: bringing full balance to the Tower by entering it as male AS - not Servants and Guardians balancing each other, the Servants being balanced by absorbind the Guardians), making the Tower stronger than ever been.

Then Egwene will face Rand as she arrives to the Caemlyn palace before the battle. He was secretely there with Elayne and Min, and Aviendha has returned too. We will have Egwene in full wrath mode. She will announce to Rand the Aes Sedai will fight at his side, will be behind him at the Last Battle, but they are free and they will never serve him, swear fealty to him and most definitely not fetch his slippers, nor chase flies for him. And by the way, thank you very much for sending us to a bloody Darkfriend. What were you thinking, you idiot!"

And then, triumphant...

"Oh and by the way... just to make things by clear, My Lord Dragon. By Aes Sedai I don't mean just the sisters. The Asha'man are no more. When Logain came to me, I invited him and his men to join the Tower as Aes Sedai, and they've agreed. This morning the male Aes Sedai led by Logain Sedai and the Red Ajah have come to raze down the nest of dreadlords that your let Taim create and train at the Black Tower. And don't go too far... once this is done, Logain Sedai and I have two words to tell you about your truce with.... what do you want, servant? A letter from Demandred for Rand? What does it say Rand?

"It says: "by the end of this day, you will finally understand to your grief which of us was the better man, Lews Therin" He knew you were coming Egwene... and he is ready. He must be the real commander of the BT - not Taim. Logain and the Reds won't be a match for him. You have no idea.... The Last Battle has started, I have to take command and huh... Mat's better return soon from the.. what's the name again Elayne?

"The Tower of Ghen... mother's milk in a cup, this sounds like the walls of the city are coming down?"

"It doesn't just sound like it...."



This message last edited by DomA on 14/06/2010 at 06:47:32 PM
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