is weaker than Moiraine.
Meaning whether we use your scale or mine, there needs to be a non-strength explanation for why Barasine can hold Egwene and Amys cannot.
Meaning whether we use your scale or mine, there needs to be a non-strength explanation for why Barasine can hold Egwene and Amys cannot.
Or maybe you're trying to put a triangular block into a square hole.
It's a screwed-up half-ass magic system that has huge flaws in it. Amys can't do it properly, but we're expected to eat the theory that Barasine or Katerine can at a much later stage in the books when Egwene is getting really skilled and powerful. Sometimes I can't believe we give this stuff the time of day. It's clearly got huge errors in it.
RJ's answer would no doubt have been that Barasine has a shielding talent, or some such unprovable thing which he used to cover his inconsistencies from time to time.
Silviana says that she's going to replace the Sisters in the morning with two new ones. Does the whole Tower have the Talent?
Bah... what a waste of time.
Did RJ revise the One Power system towards the latter part of the series? Say around books 9 and 10? That would coincide with the Cleansing, where smaller circles suddenly matched very powerful Forsaken?
IMO, there were several genres in the OP in the series, though he'll never admit it. It's exactly why he's keeping it vague.
In the first half of the series, men were clearly made to be stronger in every way. He added all the BS about dexterity later when he decided to equalize them, no doubt realizing that 1,000 Ash'aman would utterly pillage the WT if men were twice as strong as Asmodean claimed.
He's also gone through a strength thing, where everyone was supremely powerful in the beginning i.e. Moghedien > 10 strongest Sisters in the Tower, and Be'lal can destroy us without moving from his throne. Later he made everyone equal. I really wouldn't be surprised if he actually did change the scale to make the average women 50, and expect us to accept it.
By book 13 we'll have Rand vs Morgase, with strict disclaimers shouting about rare Talents, dexterity, willpower and bravery explaining how she can shield Rand.
I tend to agree with you, although you can't really blame the man! Plot realities called for some of the changes, like showing that the Forsaken are still human (I'll even give him a mulligan on this one since the myths of the Forsaken in the first 3 books made it necessary to make them seem practically omnipotent.
Here's a Moiraine-ism that I think highlights how loose the OP system was at the beginning:
EoTW
Listen to the Wind
"You have great potential, I think," Moiraine continued. "With training you might become even more powerful than Egwene, and I believe she can become one of the most powerful Aes Sedai we have seen in centuries."
Back in EoTW it seems even AS aren't all that sure how strong someone can become... obviously RJ made changes.
Personally I think the biggest shift we've seen in the OP strength area has been the difference between men and women. At one point RJ started telling and showing us how much stronger men were, but to your point it clearly dawned on him that it wouldn't work unless he toned it back or created some additional mitigating factors. Links seem a lot more potent, mixed circles seem to actually enhance strength and suddenly there are a lot more women with a good bit of OP strength (by AS standards) in the Tower.
I do think he's stayed more consistent with Talents and skill though. Even in the very beginning Siuan tells Nynaeve that with training no 1 Sister could block her from the source, and even in the above quote Moiraine stresses the importance of training.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount
10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM
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Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking!
10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM
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No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength...
10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM
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See the question again man!
10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM
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That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman...
10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM
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I need to re-evaluate nothing!
10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM
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Think logically for a moment...
10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM
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Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine?
10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Aviendha did in FoH...
10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM
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Nope!
10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM
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Your quotes are faulty
10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM
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In what sense though?
10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM
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Forkroot
10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM
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Again... later that night?
10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM
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What do you mean?
10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM
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See below...
10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM
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Re: See below...
10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM
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I just did.
10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM
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Well then we disagree
10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM
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BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT!
10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM
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Ah, you mean later later ...
10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM
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Forkroot wears off, you know?
10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM
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Yes I know
10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM
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I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM
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Re: I've explained it before in this thread...
10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM
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Are you sure you're feeling fine?
10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM
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RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe?
10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM
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It wasn't BS... both were RJ!
10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM
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In that case, there is no problem...
10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM
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But that isn't what the text says...
10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM
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How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then?
10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM
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Yeah, both were RJ
10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM
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Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate.
10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM
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10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM
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Really?
10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM
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Re: Really?
10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM
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Here's what is clear:
10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM
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IMO it's easy to disprove
10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
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Dude...
10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM
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At least we agree on one thing
10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM
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yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3
13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM
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Have to agree with Sidious on this point
11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM
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The rate forkroot wears off?
16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM
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You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all!
16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM
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Maria's other answer adresses this...
10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM
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Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did.
10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM
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You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off...
10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM
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But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield...
10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM
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Easy...
10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM
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What has that got to do with it?
10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM
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Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half..
10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM
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Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who...
10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM
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I can agree with that.
10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM
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...
10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM
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Agreed, but...
10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM
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Re: Agreed, but...
10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM
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Good point...
10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM
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Re: Good point...
10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM
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We've had this discussion before
13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM
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Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list...
10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM
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I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense
10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM
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Uhhh?
10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM
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Re: Uhhh?
10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM
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DUDE!
10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM
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Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily...
10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM
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That's fairly simple, actually...
10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM
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Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai...
10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM
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Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM*
10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM
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Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right...
10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM
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No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages...
10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM
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Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them...
10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM
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Very poor evidence
10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM
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no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined
11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM
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The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined...
11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM
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Here's the problem with that...
11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM
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I think you are misreading her.
10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM
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Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM*
10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM
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Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution.
10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM
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Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals.
11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM
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I don't agree
10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM
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BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you.
10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM
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Hmm...
10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM
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Because of the question to which she responded...
10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM
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Re: Because of the question to which she responded...
10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM
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Without contradicting the latter...
10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM
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Ah well
10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM
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Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified!
10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM
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Nope...
10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM
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Who said Cadsuane was 50?
10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM
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So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55?
10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM
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She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys!
10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM
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Amys can't hold her properly
10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM
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What about later that night?
10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM
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No she didn't
16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM
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No she didn't what?
16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM
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Re: No she didn't what?
17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM
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Why do you think it's a linear scale?
16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM
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That's simple...
16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM
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Re: That's simple...
16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM
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Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it.
16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM
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Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body.
10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM
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The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new
10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM
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RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before
10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM
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It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing
11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM
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Just to make things clear on the strength thing...
10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM
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It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second...
10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM
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That still proves my point...
10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM
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Re: That still proves my point...
10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM
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Then why...
10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM
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Re: Then why...
10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM
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God, what stupidity!
10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM
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Re: God, what stupidity!
10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM
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It doesn't have to be 1-100.
10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM
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Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100.
10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM
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That's a mathematical impossibility...
10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM
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Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations.
11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM
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You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM
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Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM
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Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off.
11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM
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I agree
11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM
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Re: I agree
12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM
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BS didn't answer with "Read and find out"
12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM
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We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM*
13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM
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Actually she said "No"... *NM*
13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM
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I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question.
13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM
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Eh, practically useless.
14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM
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I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM*
15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM
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Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though.
17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM
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